Your Creative Mind

How to Find the Poignant Story with Vanishing Postcards Host, Evan Stern

Vanishing Postcards host and storyteller Evan Stern on the importance of telling the stories from the places that are off the interstate.
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Born during the driving rainstorm that inspired Stevie Ray Vaughan to record the classic “Texas Flood,” Evan Stern is one of a proud few who can claim Austin as his legitimate hometown. Having caught the performing bug early on, he first gained attention at age 11 with a second-place finish in Austin’s famed O. Henry Pun Off, and has since graced the stages of New York’s Carnegie Hall and Lincoln Center. A graduate of Sarah Lawrence College and the British American Drama Academy, whether acting Shakespeare, or charming audiences with the turn of a Cole Porter phrase, Evan is first and foremost a storyteller, with a sincere love and appreciation for history, travel and the art of raconteurship. He is now honored to return to Texas for the first season of Vanishing Postcards, an ambitious project that represents a synthesis of these passions through the form of audio essay.
Vanishing Postcards is a documentary travelogue in which listeners are invited on a road trip exploring the hidden dives, traditions, and frequently threatened histories that can be discovered by exiting the interstates. Named one of the Best Podcasts of 2021 by Digital Trends.
Connect with Evan
IG - @vanishing_postcards
IG - @evansternnyc
Podcast- https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/vanishing-postcards/id1544610020
Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Evan Stern: It's hard for me to really latch on one specific lesson that I have gained, but I do believe that. Everybody wants, ultimately wants to be heard.
[00:00:18] Izolda Trakhtenberg: Hello and welcome to the innovative mindset podcast. I'm your host Izolda Trakhtenberg on the show. I interview peak performing innovators in the creative social impact and earth conservation spaces or working to change the world. This episode is brought to you by brain FM brain FM combines the best of music and neuroscience to help you relax, focus, meditate, and even sleep.
[00:00:39] I love it and have been using it to write, create and do. Deepest work because you're a listener of the show. You can get a free trial head over to brain.fm/innovative mindset to check it out. If you decide to subscribe, you can get 20% off with the coupon code, innovative mindset, all one word. And now let's get to the show.
[00:00:58] Yeah.[00:01:00]
[00:01:02] Hey there. And welcome to the innovative mindset podcast. My name is Izolda Trakhtenberg. I'm your host, and I'm super thrilled that you're here. I'm also really excited and thrilled to talk about and meet this week's guest. Listen to this. Evan stern was born during the driving rainstorm that inspired Stevie Ray Vaughn to record the class.
[00:01:22] Texas flood. I love that Evan stern is one of a proud few who can claim Austin. S's legitimate hometown that's the town is growing. So, wow. That's amazing how few people probably are from there. Having caught the performing bug early on. He first gained attention at age 11 with a second place finish in Austin's famed.
[00:01:43] Oh, Henry punt off. And it says grace, the stages of new York's Carnegie hall and Lincoln center, a graduate of Sarah Lawrence college. American drama academy. Wow. Whether acting Shakespeare or charming audiences with the turn of a Cole Porter phrase, Evan is first and foremost, a storyteller, and [00:02:00] you know how close that is to my heart.
[00:02:02] He's got a sincere love and appreciation for history travel and the art of a wreck on tour ship. He's now honored to return to Texas for the first season of vanishing postcards and ambitious project that represents a synthesis of these passions through the form of audio essay. Vanishing postcards is a documentary travel log in which listeners are invited on a road trip, exploring the hidden dives, traditions, and frequently threatened histories that can be discovered by exiting the interstates named one of the best podcasts of 2021 by digital trends, evidence here to talk about banishing postcards and everything else.
[00:02:37] So amazing that he's doing Evan. Thank you so much for being there. Show welcome.
[00:02:41] Evan Stern: Thank you so much for having me. It's a great honor. Oh,
[00:02:44] Izolda Trakhtenberg: you're very sweet. So I I'm, this is such an exciting thing. Delving into the history of Texas. First of all, into the, into the storytellers of Texas into the dives and the honky-tonks of Texas as a travel log.[00:03:00]
[00:03:00] But as a podcast, what, what inspired you to do this? What inspired you to go? You know what? I'm going to create this travel log. And I'm going to make it about my home state. What happened that you went, yes, I want to do this.
[00:03:13] Evan Stern: Well, it was, it, it wasn't as if there was a lightning bolt of inspiration. It was a very kind of slow gradual process.
[00:03:21] Um, and, and you told me, you know, a few years ago that right now I'd be working on a podcast. Um, you know, I might've said really. Um, but like, like so many though, I am one of those people who over the last 10 years just absolutely fell in love. Podcasting, um, and the, um, audio medium of storytelling, I think kind of the gateway drug for me, um, was years ago, I started listening to the moth, you know, just people getting up and telling personal stories without notes.
[00:03:52] I, I just absolutely loved it. Um, then you start discovering, um, other programs, you know, like the, the kitchen [00:04:00] sisters and, and, and, and there's, you know, different, different stuff. I mean, there, there's a wonderful podcast about classic Hollywood called you must remember this. There's one about country music called cocaine and rhinestones, um, and around, and, you know, not too long ago as well.
[00:04:18] Um, you know, the YouTube algorithm, uh, kept suggesting for whatever reason that I watched these, uh, travel blog, travel blog videos, and in watching them, I would never really see the way that I enjoy traveling represented. Um, I mean, certainly it's not always the case, but I think more often than not, when you, when you see videos of that nature, it's much less about the places themselves.
[00:04:45] It's much more about the people saying, oh, look at me and how cute I am in this place. Um, and I just kind of gradually started thinking, you know, I wonder if there is something that, uh, that, that I can do. [00:05:00] Um, and initially I had this grand idea. That I wanted to do a show that was going to be a musical travel log of Mexico.
[00:05:09] Um, you know, I'm, I'm immersed in the gig economy in New York, and I always try my best to get away January February just to, to escape the, the bitter cold of the winter. And, um, you know, Mexico is my happy place. It's, it's cheap, it's warm. Um, and so I initially had this idea that I was going to go, uh, kind of explore, use music as a portal to exploring the cultural, regional history of Mexico.
[00:05:36] I was going to go to Vera Cruz that was going to where the tradition of, you know, and one a Watteau and, um, you know, in Monterey and the north. And I went so far as to, uh, produce a pilot episode, um, in Marietta Yucatan, um, about the tradition of the trophies that they have there. And it's one thing to, you know, when you're running an event, [00:06:00] Um, you know, you're thinking to yourself, oh my goodness, this is just going to be the best thing ever.
[00:06:05] This is going to be amazing. And then you sit down and you listen to what you have spent months working on and you go, oh my goodness, I have missed the mark. So terribly. Um, it was a perfect lesson in show. Don't tell, I mean, w what happened was, is I talked all about the city of Marietta. It's about its history, this, that, and the other, but you didn't actually, um, when, when you were listening to it, I also learned pretty quickly that the, the human voice has such terrific color, shade, and nuance to it.
[00:06:37] That if you have an actor come in, um, to a dub over, uh, you know, what was said in English, you just, you just lose so much. Um, and I realized pretty quickly that I needed to learn much more about audio production before tackling a project of that ambitious nature. And so I started thinking to myself, well, you know what.
[00:06:59] Might [00:07:00] not be as exotic as Mexico, but if there's one thing I know it's that Texas people love to talk and they tell great stories. So in January of 2020, um, grab some equipments. Um, and I went back down to Texas to see what I could do. Um, really, it was just, uh, going to be kind of an experiment. Um, but it very quickly evolved into vanishing postcards.
[00:07:26] Um, what happened was, is I took a look at what I was doing, um, and I realized that each episode was a snapshot of a different place. And if there was a thing that the place has had in common it's that you didn't know how much longer a lot of them were going to be around or that they were representative of broader cultural histories or traditions that.
[00:07:52] You know, you, you just, they're kind of rare, um, in, in this kind of fast paced rapidly homogenizing [00:08:00] world. Um, and, um, since then it, it became, it it's, it's been an incredibly rewarding journey. Um, you know, as I maybe referenced earlier in, in many ways, it is kind of a 180 from a lot of the work I've previously done at the, at the same time.
[00:08:17] Um, I feel that all of that work really kind of beautifully prepared me for it. Um, and having embarked on this journey, um, I ended up covering like about 1500 miles of, of Texas and, um, having embarked on this journey as a solo traveler, um, I'm now really grateful that the series is out in the world. Um, and I can invite, uh, you know, people like you and listeners really around the world, uh, to, to join me now and experience, uh, everything that I got to do.
[00:08:49] Izolda Trakhtenberg: Wow. That's amazing. And it's incredible to me, what you just said about how you took everything that you had learned up until that [00:09:00] point and reframed it and repurposed it almost into this, this way of looking at your home state. And yet it is both technical and it takes a lot of artistry. And I'm wondering what, in, as part of, as part of doing this project, what did you learn?
[00:09:21] What was the thing that stood out for you that you learned maybe about yourself or about the people in your state or about the places? What was the biggest thing you learned and how did it change you?
[00:09:31] Evan Stern: Well, there's a lot, I mean, it's hard to, for me to really latch on one specific lesson that I have gained.
[00:09:38] Um, but I do believe that. Everybody wants, ultimately wants to be heard. They, they really do. Um, and I mean, people often ask me, you know, w w w w when I first started doing this, it was, it was in January, 2020. It was before the pandemic hit. Obviously the pandemic changed, um, a [00:10:00] lot of what I could do. Um, but I was really the first episodes that you'll hear in the series.
[00:10:05] I was really just kind of showing up at these places completely unannounced. Um, they really had no idea, um, that I was going to be there. Um, and it, it, people ask me, you know, did you meet resistance? We'll we'll really know. Um, everyone was, was intrigued. And for the most part, people were so honored that, you know, someone like me was taking an interest in their work, their place, uh, what they were doing.
[00:10:35] Um, and I don't think too, I mean, Someone recently asked me too, that, that when they, you know, listen to the, to the series, you know, that, you know, they, they feel as if I'm able to, you know, extract these, these stories. And they said, well, how, how do you, how do you make this magic happen? And, well, the truth is is that you, you can't, um, there is nothing that you can do to you.
[00:10:59] You never [00:11:00] really know what is is going to happen. Um, but the stories, if you just, if you start talking to people, um, you approach them with respect, empathy, and a willingness to listen. Um, and you ask them specific questions. Um, you just, you, you never know what you're going to. Um, and something that I tell anyone who's maybe interested in doing something like this.
[00:11:29] Um, I will say that if you do want to, you know, get stories, you do want to ask people specific questions. Um, I would never go up to someone and just say, tell me about yourself. Um, I might say, um, before we get started, could you maybe describe for me your childhood home, you know, something like that. And, um, that really kind of opens up the door and we just kind of take things from there.
[00:11:51] Yeah.
[00:11:56] Izolda Trakhtenberg: Sorry. I'm taking all of that in. I like to take a pause to make sure [00:12:00] that I've, that I've understood everything. One of the things that I heard you say that really struck a chord with me was that it's about listening. And the other thing of course was asking those specific questions and. Were there any, and if so, what are they techniques that you use specifically as a, as a performer to help you with that part of it?
[00:12:26] Evan Stern: Well, you know, I honestly, I think that, um, as I said so much of my experience, um, leading PR prepared me in, in leading up to this, um, and a big job that I've had for a number of years here in the city is it's a very, it's a very strange job. Um, I work as a, what is called a standardized patient, um, that is the medical schools, programs, hire actors to facilitate simulations [00:13:00] for, uh, medical interns and students.
[00:13:03] Um, I have played all sorts of different cases. You'd never believe. I mean, they've had to diagnose me. I've been the graphic designer they've had to diagnose with cancer. Um, I have, uh, you know, I, I I've been the 19 year old crack addict who suffered a panic attack. You name it. I've I've had it. Um, but I have learned so much in, in working with these students in terms of how they build rapport and what works and what doesn't.
[00:13:34] Um, I think it's amazing. How many people, uh, it can be applied to interview situations, whatever, um, you know, you give someone a microphone. Sometimes they just kind of become a completely different person. You know, they think that every question, you know, has to be probing and every question, you know, has to have weight, but you really just have to remember how you talk to people in your [00:14:00] everyday life.
[00:14:02] You know, how do you introduce yourself to a stranger? Um, you know, you're just going to start talking to people, um, and you know, you, you read their body language and you, you really just it's about establishing trust. Um, and it, and I feel that people understand that. I don't think of myself as a journalist.
[00:14:30] Um, I'll be the first to say that I think of myself as more of an essayist. I really think that a journalist job is to investigate a journalist job is to probe. I'm not really there to do that. I'm really there just to, you know, kind of have a conversation and, and enjoy the ride and see where that ride takes.
[00:14:49] You know, I'm not, if someone tells me a tall tale, um, I'm not going to fact check that story. Um, but I think that people recognize [00:15:00] that. Um, and you know, I just think that, um, just, just really, like I said, just, just remembering how we relate to one another, uh, every day is, is just crucial.
[00:15:15] Izolda Trakhtenberg: Yeah, you're talking. I mean, as you're talking, I'm going, he's, he's talking about integrity and authenticity, and those words are abandoned about aura a lot nowadays, but it really, it seems to me that that's, that that's what you, that, that that's what, what you were using, you know, using who you, who you were authentically to meet these people.
[00:15:37] And I know you said that people asked you if you, if you met resistance, I'm wondering what was the most wild story you heard?
[00:15:46] Evan Stern: Goodness. Oh, man, there, there were, there was, uh, so, so there's this teeny town called Castile, Texas that sits on the Western edge of the, uh, [00:16:00] the hill country. It's absolutely beautiful, very isolated.
[00:16:04] The town has a population of six and, um, I don't even know if he's really there, mayor, I don't know if they actually have a mayor, but you know, the, the big local personality is Randy Love. Festi, uh, he's the owner of the Castille store. Um, I'll be releasing his episode in a, in a few weeks. Um, but, uh, when I was there, he told me that, uh, he had, uh, he, he, he, he took a trip to Cabo San Lucas with his girlfriend.
[00:16:36] Uh, they saw this, uh, chicken in a bar and he said, you know what, I need a chicken for the store. So, um, you know, he bought this, uh, roof. For the store. And, um, he had this, uh, Billy Bass that was like, you know, one of those electronic things, you know, you clap your hands in the best wiggles. Well, um, one day as he tells [00:17:00] me, he looks over and, um, this rooster is having sexual relations with that bass.
[00:17:05] So this thing he tells me became this huge sensation where people from all over the place started coming to town to see his rooster perform, you know, 12 times a day. And he was able to, uh, make hundreds of thousands of dollars in real estate deals that he was able to sell to the people who came through the store because of that rooster.
[00:17:27] And then he proudly led me into the store where he showed me this. He, you know, he, he called the rooster cockroach. Yeah, and the rooster died. And after the rooster died, he had that. He took him to the taxidermists and, um, had him, uh, mounted and placed on top of his good friend, Billy the bass. And I've seen a lot of taxidermy in my day.
[00:17:51] I don't think I have ever seen a stuffed rooster and I have certainly never seen a row stuffed rooster on top of a Billy Bass. I'll [00:18:00] tell you that right now.
[00:18:02] Izolda Trakhtenberg: Wow. That is. Tall tale for sure.
[00:18:10] Oh my goodness. I uh, wow. Yeah, yeah. I don't even, I'm like, whatever. How do I follow that up? I think, I don't
[00:18:21] know. I did. I did, because you know, the thing, the thing about this is that anytime we tell stories or listen to stories, I think we're changed by them even if, even if it's, oh, that's just the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Your experience of life is, is, is changed in some way or another. So I guess I'm wondering, how have you been changed by doing this project?
[00:18:45] Evan Stern: Well, It's in many ways, it's been a dive into the unknown, as I said, it's, it's very, it was all very new for me in the beginning. Um, I had to do a lot of learning and [00:19:00] I re I really had to put myself out there. Um, it definitely, um, tested the boundaries of my comfort, um, in a lot of ways. Um, you know, you really just have to, as I said earlier, you have to go up out there and just start talking to people.
[00:19:16] Um, and I usually found that I was way more nervous than the people I was talking to. And, um, I was talking to someone else about this, um, experience. Someone said, and, you know, she asked me, she was like, well, how do you, where does that confidence come from? Where do you get that confidence? And I said, well, you know what?
[00:19:36] I, I, I think I've discovered that confidence is kind of overrated. Um, because you can't just read a book or, you know, attend a three-day workshop, whatever, and magically have confidence. It just doesn't happen that way. Confidence happens as a result of experience. Um, it happens as a result of mistakes. Um, and, [00:20:00] um, I think.
[00:20:02] I heard somewhere that, you know, what heroic act doesn't involve, just huge levels of vulnerability. Um, and so I, I think I have definitely grown in confidence as a result of all of this, but that really, uh, just is a by-product of, of the work itself and everything that, you know, has been asked of me to, to rise to this challenge
[00:20:36] Izolda Trakhtenberg: and that in itself, the, the skills you've built, the ideas that you've gotten and, and brought to fruition is a big part of the change I would imagine. And I love, I'd love to discuss a little bit as you talk about this, what is the process? What was the creative process that goes in to making an episode to crafting vanishing posts?
[00:20:59] Evan Stern: Absolutely. [00:21:00] So each, you know, obviously I do have each episode does have a subject that I am interested in delving into. Um, there are people that I want to meet, just so you know, so basically, um, a bit more about the show itself for, for those listening out there. So essentially listeners are invited to join me on a road trip.
[00:21:23] And so each episode is produced in documentary style. So, you know, you're going to hear a lot of, it's not, you know, interview, it's not talk show, you're going to hear a lot of different voices. Um, you're going to hear some of my narration, um, and I really work hard to make it an immersive listening experience for those who, who are hearing the episodes.
[00:21:49] Um, but basically the, the way that I constructed is, um, there are. And, uh, as I said, you know, each episode, there are certain issues that, that I'm looking at. [00:22:00] Um, and so I just go, I, I talk to people, um, and I assemble a number of interviews at the, at the places that I go to. Um, you know, I try to talk to the, uh, the owners.
[00:22:14] I try to talk to the workers. I try to talk to the people who go to these places. Um, you're going to ask all of those people different questions. Um, but you're also, I think there, you know, you also want to, there are also some specific questions that I will ask all of them. Um, and then what I do is I, I come back home and I listened to all of the, um, I listened to all of the interviews and I extract, you know, the, the gold from each person I speak with, you know, I could very well talk to someone for like an hour out of that hour conversation.
[00:22:51] I might just take, you know, Three minutes worth of, of nuggets or whatnot. Um, and then I, you know, I, I look at [00:23:00] everything that I have and I stepped back and I, I just kind of look for it, you know, that, what, what, what, what, what are the commonalities, what, what do people keep coming back to, you know, are there opposing views?
[00:23:15] Um, and from there, I, I just kind of take these nuggets and I weave together a story out of all of that. Um, I really let my subjects kind of guide the way that the, the story moves and goes. Um, the, the most challenging job for me is in the writing process of pasting it all together. Um, everything has to have I learned, you know, for years, I, you know, I've, I've.
[00:23:45] Did a lot of performing in the cabaret world. Um, and you know, even if you're just putting together a show, that's, that's really kind of, you know, a series of songs, what is said in between those songs is every bit as [00:24:00] important as the songs themselves and everything has to have architecture and a beginning, middle and an end.
[00:24:06] Um, so the, the greatest challenge for me is about how I can link everything together, um, in the narration as part of a cohesive whole, um, you know, I think, but each episode, uh, you know, I, I never, totally, there are always things that I want to focus on, but you just never totally know where it's going to go.
[00:24:27] And before each one, um, I always ask my God, is this going to work? Um, but some so far it's worked out okay,
[00:24:38] Izolda Trakhtenberg: That moment of, oh, what if this is going to be a complete disaster? I know it well. Um, and it's, I'm so fascinated by what you're saying with respect to the storytelling, the beginning, middle and end, and the sort of the patter between songs in, in, in a cabaret show, all of, all of those things, those elements [00:25:00] of storytelling, what do you think is the result?
[00:25:06] What is the most crucial thing to put into it? And what is the result? How do you, when do you feel like yes, it has worked as opposed to, oh, it's going to be a disaster.
[00:25:16] Evan Stern: Well, as I said earlier, again, the most important thing is, is show don't tell, um, and what, what, what is always best for me is I try not to.
[00:25:34] I try not to express too much in the way of, of opinion. Um, what, what is really magical though, is just when you have, when you're talking to someone and, you know, whether they realize it or not, they, they share and tell a story that just kind of beautifully encapsulates everything, you know, that, that just really explains the issue [00:26:00] without it, you know, at that point, the work for you is, is really done.
[00:26:05] Um, but you know, kind of an example of, of something that, you know, I, I did that, that was a challenge, um, was, you know, I have an episode that's coming out in a bit where. I took a trip first to, to Brownsville, Texas, where I spoke with this man who is the last, uh, cook in the United States who was allowed to serve a barbacoa cooked barbacoa, as it was meant to be prepared, which means it's, it's cooked in a pit under the ground.
[00:26:37] Um, and that's what he does. He, he, he's serving barbacoa out of what had been his childhood home. Um, there's a pit out back that's in the ground and, you know, that's where he cooks it. The reason that he's allowed to do it is because his father started it in 1956 and it's been going on for this long. And so I focused on him and I did a segment on him.
[00:26:57] And then I went to San [00:27:00] Antonio and I, um, you know, met a cook there who, you know, talked about cooking up puffy tacos. And, um, it ended up, you know, she, her story went in a completely different direction. Um, I mean, her mother. Started this business out of, uh, out of a garage because it was her last hope. Um, she was an incredible woman, a revered figure in San Antonio, um, who, you know, was shockingly murdered.
[00:27:28] Um, and she talked all about that and, and, and everything. And, and then, and how she like found forgiveness and was being able to move beyond and, you know, everything that her, how her mother prepared her and how her mother expressed love through, through cooking. And, um, I realized that, you know, on, on the surface, you know, these two stories, yes, they were about cooking, but they were very, very different.
[00:27:55] But what, what is it that they had in common? I realized that, you know, [00:28:00] through their cooking, they were both expressing love. And for me, and that's how I brought the two together.
[00:28:14] Izolda Trakhtenberg: I'm still thinking, sorry, it's a beautiful, uh, yeah. That notion of, um, cooking and, and healing through cooking and expressing love through cooking, but also expressing love for, I guess, the, the heritage and the inspiration for what they did is so important. And I'm wondering if you have someone or figures or people in, in your world.
[00:28:45] Hoo hoo hoo. Does that for you? Who inspired you to do this? And if so, is it that same love, it sounds weird to say love connection, but is that connection one of love and respect? What [00:29:00] is it about the people or the images or, or the ideas that inspired you that comes from that place?
[00:29:11] Oh, no you're
[00:29:11] Evan Stern: thinking. Oh, no, of course, absolutely. I mean,
[00:29:20] There. I mean, who can you say, can you just rephrase the question in a simple, in a simple one sentence in a simple one sentence for me? Can you say, say what you're getting at
[00:29:30] Izolda Trakhtenberg: again here? Sure. I'm just wondering who inspired you throughout the journey? Are there any public figures or is there anybody in Texas?
[00:29:37] Are there any people who made you go, ah, this is what I want. Well,
[00:29:41] Evan Stern: what I can say is that if, if there is a bar that I am always working towards, you know, never, never met him personally. Um, but I am old enough to remember growing up on CVS. There was a man by the name of Charles Kuralt who would travel the [00:30:00] country and he would really just kind of share good news is, is what he was, is what he was doing.
[00:30:07] And he. He, he never expressed anything in, in terms of, in, in, in showing these stories, he was able to present, you know, the best of people without really expressing anything in the way of judgment. And there are many situations throughout this process where I have asked myself, what would Charles Kuralt do?
[00:30:32] Hmm. Um, and you know, I, I don't mean to, I'm not trying to compare myself to Charles Caroll. Um, in the least, you know, I have much more work to do, you know, before I feel like I can get people called him the Walt Whitman of American television. Um, but I can tell you that that is the bar that I am always working towards.
[00:30:56] Um, and the greatest compliments that I have received, [00:31:00] um, you know, or when people have heard this series and said, oh, you know what, this reminds me of Charles Perrault.
[00:31:08] Izolda Trakhtenberg: That's lovely. And I remember Charles Caroll also on like, uh, CBS Sunday morning or something like that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. His stories were all, you know, when, uh, you were mentioning the idea of love and heart.
[00:31:20] That's what I remember thinking about his stories was that they were always full of such quiet soul and heart. They didn't have to be huge stories, but they were, they always left me feeling better and always gave me something to think about. Well, yeah,
[00:31:38] Evan Stern: go on. Go on. No, no, no, go ahead. Go ahead. Well, and I do believe that there is a great void of that when you look at our media landscape right now, and th there, there really is.
[00:31:48] Um, we live in a horribly polarized, horribly divided age. Um, I, I do not believe that anything that we have lived through over the [00:32:00] last five, six years should be normalized. I will be the first to say that, um, But I do believe that, you know, the, the issues that we are wrestling with right now as a nation, uh, in the divisions that we're dealing with in terms of politics and race are completely unsustainable.
[00:32:20] But at the same time, I do think that there is more that we have in common than what we've realized. And I do think that culture right now is one of those rare areas of agreement. And what this show is about celebrating is that culture, um, you know, culture provides opportunity for shared experiences and you know, that that's really kind of what I'm getting at with, with all of this.
[00:32:53] Um, and, and additionally too, I mean, how can we expect for people in [00:33:00] our rural communities to appreciate what is good and beautiful about places like New York city or San Francisco, or even Austin for that matter, if we cannot appreciate what is good and beautiful about them,
[00:33:22] Izolda Trakhtenberg: from what you just said, it feels like there's a sort of a, through the looking glass aspect to your show that you're inviting people to go on a journey with you to, to see these places or to listen to these, to these stories and to hear about them. When you do that, when you're in that space of inviting people on a journey, how do you decide which stories are the ones that are important to tell.
[00:33:52] Evan Stern: Well, something that's important to me. Is that so often when we think about art and [00:34:00] culture, I mean, we think about palaces of civilization, like the mat, the British museum, the, the loop, but the truth is that art and culture is everywhere. And oftentimes some of the best of it comes from places that you're just not going to read about in glossy magazines.
[00:34:20] You're not going to see about these places on Instagram. And it's really about exploring that, you know, Detroit gave us Motown, Clarksdale, Mississippi gave us the blues. Um, and, and for me, it's really kind of about seeking these, these places out. You know, if you read a, you know, if you read like a tourist guide book about Texas, they're going to tell you to go to the Alamo.
[00:34:49] They're going to tell you to go to the river walk, do this, do that. Um, There's so much more to that. I mean, I had the [00:35:00] great honor of visiting a town called San Benito, um, which is about, you know, 15, 18 miles north of the border. Um, and you know, th this is, you know, if you look at this country, um, you know, the real Grandy valley, um, is just statistically, one of the, the poor regions, you know, there's been a lot.
[00:35:21] Um, you know, uh, D population, you know, flight, whatnot, but this town of San Benito, um, was responsible for giving birth to the movement of music. Um, which is an incredible genre. Basically what happened is the, uh, the Mexican laborers down in south Texas, um, heard the music that was brought to the area by the checks, the Germans, they heard the Pocus, they heard the accordions, um, and they, they took that accordion music.
[00:35:51] They took those polkas and they added their own lyrics and Spanish to them. They threw in guitar and they created this whole entire genre [00:36:00] of music. And, um, w w the story there is, is, is I knew that I wanted to. To do a piece, you know, on the border, you hear about the border a lot, um, in the news right now, but what is always lost in the noise surrounding all of that is the culture and the people who actually exist there.
[00:36:19] Um, and I thought that kahuna really kind of provided a terrific, uh, opportunity just to explore kind of the beautiful th the, the beauty that exists there. And I heard that there was this museum in this town called the Texas kahuna music hall of fame. So I sent a message on Facebook. Um, I I'd heard that, uh, it was founded and owned by a man by the name of Ray Abila.
[00:36:42] And a little while later, I got a call from his son, turned out, uh, that Mr. Abila, his father had died about seven months prior, but that if I wanted to go, um, visit the museum, that they would be honored to have me and I showed up. This museum, the small town in [00:37:00] Texas and the entire family was there because they wanted for me to know about their father.
[00:37:07] Um, they wanted me to know about Cancun . Um, they found a, the president of a record label who specializes in this music so that he could be there with us too. And they had such pride and joy in, in sharing. And an honor that someone took the time to visit a place like, like San Benito. Um, it is an experience I will always treasure and never forget.
[00:37:34] Izolda Trakhtenberg: That is so lovely. And I'm so glad that you got to tell that to, to tell that story, to show, to show, to sort of open the window, if you will, into San Benito and into this music. And I'm wondering something, this is a little off topic, but do you know who Alan Lomax was? I
[00:37:54] Evan Stern: have heard the name. Um, please refresh my memory.
[00:37:57] Izolda Trakhtenberg: Sure, sure. So he was an [00:38:00] ethnomusicologist and what he did with his whole career for 50 years, he traveled the world and he recorded music. And when video came along, video of mew, indigenous music, wherever he was, he tried to find the music from that place. And, uh, and there, when I worked at the national geographic site in many moons ago, he came over and he was like, Hey, I would love to put together a library that didn't happen with the geographic, but his daughter, after his death put up a website and there is a website that you can go and, uh, sort of see the music from anywhere.
[00:38:35] You can hear the music from anywhere, you just type it in. And if it's there, if they got a recording of it, you'll be able to hear it. And so I'm wondering for posterity, what is your. W w w this library, if you will, that you're creating this travel log that you're creating in my mind, Alan Lomax, his version of it is providing us access to music from all [00:39:00] over the world that is, that could be lost.
[00:39:03] And I'm wondering, what do you, what is your feeling about that with the stories that you're telling you mentioned earlier that these that's, their survival is not certain the different traditions and the, and even the, the, you know, the honky-tonks the places themselves, what are you going for here? What is your long-term vision for vanishing postcard?
[00:39:24] Evan Stern: Well, so yes, so I'm collecting oral history and I, I think it is really important that we do have a record of it. Um, I think in some ways, uh, this is something perhaps of a bit of a call to arms. Um, you know, I, I want to say it's about shining a light on, you know, what is, what is still, what is still there.
[00:39:47] Um, but we can still go to, but as I said, you know, some of this stuff might not be around for too much longer, so it's, it's really kind of about drawing attention to it so that we can preserve it. Um, you know, I look at my [00:40:00] hometown of Austin. Texas as a whole. Um, it is, it is changing at rapid pace. I don't think that change is something to be feared.
[00:40:09] Um, in, in many ways I think it is something that, um, should be embraced, but we have to change and grow responsibly. Um, we have to ask, you know, why, w w what is it that people like about Austin? What is it about Texas that draws people there? Why do people keep coming? Um, and I do think that it is it's culture, and I believe that we, as a society need to do a lot more to protect the culture that surrounds us.
[00:40:36] I mean, th th most of the places that I spotlight are small businesses and. You know, whenever a small business closes that, you know, has a great history behind it or fondness to it, you'll have all of these people come out of the woodwork saying, oh my goodness, this is horrible. This is the worst thing ever.
[00:40:54] But my question always is, well, when was the last time you, you actually went there? Um, [00:41:00] I mean, it's really exhausting. It's a lot of hard work, um, to, to keep these places going. And if people get tired or they aren't making ends meet you, you can't blame them. Um, and this is an issue that you see happening in New York.
[00:41:14] It's an issue you see happening in Texas, California, London, name it it's happening. Um, and so I do think that. You know, th th hopefully this series kind of makes people think, uh, a bit more about that. Um, and long-term, it is my hope, uh, that I can expand the map beyond Texas because, um, the, the issues that I feel are explored in this series are truly universal.
[00:41:44] In fact, if you look at the analytics, um, most people tuning in and listening right now are actually listening from outside of Texas. Um, and so I think it's important to, uh, you know, I want to expand the map [00:42:00] and, um, you know, if I can do a part to draw attention to, you know, the, the, the beauty of a meal, American culture that surrounds us, um, you know, that's kind of what my goal is.
[00:42:16] Izolda Trakhtenberg: And it's a great goal. And I'm so glad that you said that you eventually, cause that was going to be, my next question was, do you want to take it outside of Texas? And I mean, Texas covering Texas can be a lifetime's work cause it's such a big place with such a varied set of, of uh, peoples and cultures.
[00:42:32] And yet I love the notion of, of that, what you said, finding those small businesses, finding those people, who aren't, the ones trumpeting themselves and giving them a chance to, to shine. I think that's amazing and wonderful that you're doing that. And I love the notion. And if you could. What would you go next?
[00:42:53] Evan Stern: Uh, well, I, I have a dream. I would love to drive route 66 from Oklahoma to [00:43:00] California, and I would love to collect stories and oral histories along the way. Um, I think that route 66, so much of why, um, it kind of occupies this mythic status, um, is because of the timing. Um, you know, there were other highways that were built before or after there were larger ones.
[00:43:19] Um, but I think, you know, if you journey route 60, I've never done it, but I, I have to think that if you drive route 66, I mean, you were following in the steps of the, the Okies who migrated to California because of the dust bowl and the great depression. Um, it was an incredible artery during world war II.
[00:43:38] So there's that history as well. Um, then it kind of. You know, in encapsulates that golden age of American travel and in the late forties and fifties, then it was decommissioned. And, you know, there was a lot of abandonment that happened and kind of, what does that say? Um, you know, about the American dream, you [00:44:00] know, it was it, uh, and, and so there's a lot that I would like to explore and taking that journey, um, beyond that, I would also love to take a trip to Mississippi sometime, uh, something that fascinates me about Mississippi.
[00:44:11] I think, um, the, the writer really Maura said that Mississippi is America's Ireland. Um, if you look at it, it has produced the most incredible Canon of just literary lions, um, William Fox. Um, Richard Wright, Eudora, Welty. Um, they were all Mississippians and Mississippi continues to produce an incredible writers there.
[00:44:36] There's a wonderful storytelling tradition attached to Mississippi. Um, and I would love to see, uh, what, what I could get there.
[00:44:47] Izolda Trakhtenberg: I love it. I think that's amazing. First of all, I'd driven along 66 and you will, you will love it. Love it, love it. And, uh, you know, Mississippi and the south in general [00:45:00] has a rich storytelling culture. I have every time I spend time in Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, Florida, that, that part of the country there, if you, if you set a spell, you will, you will get amazing stories.
[00:45:16] And often you don't, it doesn't take a lot of prompting. So I'm I'm you said earlier that, that it's just about sort of talking to people the way you would talk to them. The, I guess the question is, have you had people who just say Nope, Nope. Not doing it. And if so, what have you done if that particular story is important to you or do you just move on to the next person?
[00:45:38] Oh,
[00:45:38] Evan Stern: absolutely. Well, there, there is. Um, you know, so the. The third episode that you'll hear in the series. Um, I did at a honky-tonk called arche blue, silver dollar, um, in this town called Bandera, Texas. Um, it's a fantastic place. Um, again, it was pre pandemic. Um, so, you know, I showed up there unannounced and I really wanted to [00:46:00] talk to, uh, archi blue.
[00:46:01] He's he's the owner, he's in his eighties. He performs there every Saturday night. Um, I thought, you know, th this guy is a legend. I've got to talk to him, got to talk to him. He wanted absolutely nothing to do with it. Wouldn't give me an inch refuse to let me record him. Um, and you know, he was cordial when I talked to him, we're talking, you know, you're one word answers, you try everything.
[00:46:24] Um, but what happened is, is, uh, every, I, I talked to everyone. That I could find around him and everybody had a story about archi that they wanted to share and, um, what resulted in. And so his refusal became part of the story itself. Um, but in talking to everyone who knew and loved him and had stories to share about him, you really got a terrific, uh, portrait that wouldn't have existed.
[00:46:56] Otherwise that that I think is entirely charming. [00:47:00] Um, and when that happened, I had to remind myself that one of my very, very favorite, um, essays of all time, uh, was written by, uh, gates Elise. Um, in 1965, he was given an assignment to interview Frank Sinatra for Esquire magazine and Frank Sinatra completely refused to talk to him.
[00:47:23] Um, but what he ended up doing was he interviewed all the hangers on everyone in his, his entourage. And, uh, to this day, people say that it is the most realistic. Portrait of Frank Sinatra that has ever been captured. Um, and so I would recommend to anyone who finds themselves in that position to think of that story and, you know, maybe read that story, uh, because that's something that I draw tremendous inspiration from.[00:48:00]
[00:48:03] Izolda Trakhtenberg: It's so interesting. I have a friend who, uh, who's a PR expert and she talks about the difference between marketing and PR Gloria, Charles, her name. And she says marketing is when you come to people and you say, Hey, I'm great. But PR is when someone else goes, you know what? That person they're great. And as long as it's someone you trust, it weighs more than if the person is trumping again themselves, you know?
[00:48:31] And so there's something to what you said that kind of reminded me of that, that notion of the other people around Frank Sinatra or, or, or archi, uh, being the ones who tell their tale. And I, I guess I'm wondering within that, I've asked you about the wildest, what is the story that has touched you the most?
[00:48:55] The one that made you go, ah, wow. I had no [00:49:00] idea.
[00:49:02] Evan Stern: Well, for me, the, the episode that, that, that has the most personal heart for me, um, is, is the second one. What happened is I went to this dance hall. Um, I, I, I knew that I wanted to do a piece on dance halls. Um, in, in Texas, you know, everyone always talks, always writes about Greenhall or Lukin Bach.
[00:49:27] You know, those are the big dance halls, but there are many, many, many more others out there. And there was one I discovered that I'd never been to called SEF Shaq hall. It's in this teeny community, um, called Seton, Texas. It's about eight miles outside of a town called temple. It's a community of about 40 people.
[00:49:48] And, um, and there's this old dance hall there called SEF shuck hall. That is pretty much trapped in time. Um, by most accounts, it is now the oldest, [00:50:00] um, family run dance hall in Texas. You know, it's a family that, that owns it. This family has, has always owned and run it. And, um, I went there and I wanted to talk to its owner, Alice, who is 89 years old.
[00:50:19] Um, and, uh, you know, I had actually called an advanced to ask if I could come and talk to her. She said, sure, well, I got there. And I said, well, I'm here to talk to Alice. And it turned out, you know, that morning she took a fall and they had to take her to the emergency room. Um, and you know, and it kind of, you know, you could feel the way.
[00:50:41] In that situation, you know, what, what happens to this place? Um, you know, without, without Alice here. And I ended up talking to her daughter-in-law and son, um, and you know, they're, they're committed to keeping it going. Um, but you could feel like the, you [00:51:00] know, the, you know, I, I feel like that situation kind of infused the episode with, with weight.
[00:51:06] Um, but beyond that, um, you know, I listened to, to what I had initially, and there was something missing. Um, I said to myself, I said, you know, I'm doing a lot of talking here. I'd like to find someone else who could do some, some talking for. Um, and there there's an association called the Texas dance hall preservation.
[00:51:29] And I found the woman who was working at the time as their executive director, because I wanted to talk to her just to kind of get some more historic perspective on dance halls. You know, I was talking about the history. I think it's better if someone else can talk about the history, other than me, that actually knows more.
[00:51:45] And, you know, I talked earlier about how, you know, you have those moments where someone just kind of, you know, tells a story or share something that just beautifully illuminates everything. And, um, [00:52:00] I was talking to her and I asked, I said, you know, there are so many causes out there in this world that are, that are worth devoting attention to.
[00:52:09] I said, you know, why are dance halls important to you? And she said it was, it became an incredibly emotional interview that I was not expecting at all. But she said that, you know, those places have a lot of heart and that her fear was that we're getting away from that as a society. And, you know, she, you know, ends up crying.
[00:52:34] She's saying, you know, these places, you know, people go there, you know, it's not just about the fun. It's, it's not just about the dancing. Um, it's about, you know, it's about cleaning the roof. It's about cleaning the toilet. And she says, I see so many people working so hard to keep these places going and, you know, and of course it is perfectly illustrated what the shoe lock family, you know, we're, we're [00:53:00] doing, you know, the, the, the daughter-in-law the son, you know, they, they work, you know, five days, they do not take days off.
[00:53:07] You know, they have regular jobs that they keep Monday through Friday, and then they're there on the weekends. And, um, I think that it beautifully exemplified their story. In addition to just about every other person that I talked to in the series as a whole,
[00:53:30] Izolda Trakhtenberg: that is beautiful. And I'm so grateful that you shared that, that moment of, of talking to her and also the story of. Dance halls in general or, or anything that we do because we love it. Um, you know, we, we do it because whatever it is, whatever that thing is that you do, because you love it. And particularly these places where one of the things that I think Evan, that, that you've highlighted, that I think is so [00:54:00] incredible is that you've taken, you've highlighted places that aren't going out for fame.
[00:54:08] You know, these are people and places that are just living, doing their thing and living their lives day in and day out, year in and year out. And they're not going to be a celebrity. They're not trying to be world famous for example. And yet you've shown the light on them. And I think that's so it's powerful because of that, because they're living their lives and doing something hopefully that they love, like with the dance hall story.
[00:54:35] And they're not looking for accolades and yet you've given them a platform. And I'm so grateful that you've
[00:54:43] Evan Stern: done that. Well, I will say it's not even that. I think a lot of them as well, feel a responsibility to the people who go to these places, you know, like a dive bar, isn't just a place to grab a beer.
[00:54:58] You know, a dive [00:55:00] bar represents an entire community. Um, you know, a dive bar, a dance hall. These are all places where people go to, to belong. That's that's, that's what, all of the, that's another through line that I think these places have in common, you know, whether it's a barbecue joint, a dive bar, a dance hall, people go to these places for community and for places to belong.
[00:55:25] And I think that it's, it's, it's important to highlight that aspect as well.
[00:55:31] Izolda Trakhtenberg: Absolutely. I agree. Yeah. Interestingly because people come and go, like you said, there are a lot of people who, who come to Texas, uh, especially Austin has, has ballooned. Uh, I guess the question that's come that's upper. Most of my mind right now is culturally the culture of places changes.
[00:55:54] Right? And so, as the culture evolves, I [00:56:00] know that you're a lot of what vanishing postcards is about is, is capturing that before it goes away before it's no longer in its current form. Are there things that you've done that have been, uh, sort of in the process of changing or something is over and something new's coming to take its place?
[00:56:21] And if so, what have those things been?
[00:56:25] Evan Stern: Um, you mean my work or places I've been.
[00:56:30] Izolda Trakhtenberg: I guess I'm not asking the question very well. I'm just wondering about culturally, your vanishing postcards project is focused on sort of the smaller, uh, heart, very heartfelt places in people in Texas now and perhaps, and perhaps hopefully someday elsewhere.
[00:56:51] And as, as the culture changes in those places or for those dance halls, have you captured in any of the [00:57:00] episodes that you've done? That change taking place? Absolutely.
[00:57:04] Evan Stern: Um, the, the very first place that I went to, um, was a bar called, uh, the, the dry Creek cafe. Um, it's been there for about 70 years. Um, it, when it first opened in the early 1950s, it really basically sat on the edge of the country.
[00:57:22] Now, not only is it no longer country, um, it's now pretty much surrounded by mansion's. Um, it's now basically it's this ramshackle dilapidated dive that is surrounded by some of the priciest real estate in all of Texas. Um, but this bar has survived. Um, and I think it's one of the few places that you can go where you're reminded that, you know, before the tech, uh, millionaires invaded the Hills, the Hills were actually home to Cedar choppers, which was this, um, Appalachian subculture.
[00:57:55] Um, and, uh, the, the very first person that I interviewed. [00:58:00] In, um, in Texas for the series was angel their bartender. Um, this was a tough day game, you know, raspy voice, you know, just changed smoker, you know, just, just fabulous, you know, just tough as nails, woman. Um, she was incredibly, um, reticent to, uh, to speak with me again, getting her to talk on the record and letting along to record her.
[00:58:28] Um, just took every ounce of charm that I could possibly muster. But when she found out that I was okay with cussing, um, she opened right up. She let the F bombs fly. Um, we had a terrific time, um, and, uh, very sadly I think about, um, four months or so. Um, after I, I interviewed her, she died. Um, what was remarkable about angel is, um, as I said, the place opened in, um, I think it was 1950.
[00:58:59] [00:59:00] Three. Um, she was only the third bartender to ever work there. Wow. Um, and so I'm incredibly grateful that I, you know, captured her, her voice and I have that record of her. Um, but you know, you have to ask, you know, when, when someone like that goes, you know, um, you know, what does that, how does that change a place?
[00:59:22] You know, what does that do? I was actually just back in Austin last week. Um, and I went there to visit the place to, you know, just see if there was some additional footage I could get that would help bring the season two to a close, um, just to kind of see how that change had affected things. Um, and you know, so there, there are analogies, there, there are now like a few bartenders there who are like trading duties and whatnot.
[00:59:48] Um, but I think what's kind of beautiful is that those who have filled in, you know, were all regulars, who, who knew and loved and cared about the bar. Um, [01:00:00] and, uh, you know, they dedicated a section of the bar to angel where they have, you know, her pictures and some things that she loved. Um, and, um, it was, it was just kind of interesting and reassuring to see, um, how, you know, yes, you know, when a beloved, you know, figured, uh, leaves, it's hard and it's challenging.
[01:00:21] Um, but if the community is there. It will come. It will find a way to continue. At least for now. I'm grateful to see that, to know that the dry Creek is still there and that those who love it, um, are doing their part to, uh, to keep it going.
[01:00:38] Izolda Trakhtenberg: I'm so glad to hear that story. That is wonderful. Evan. I want to thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me about this.
[01:00:46] It's, it's such an important topic because it isn't one that, that we tend to focus on. So I'm really grateful that you took the time to tell me about vanishing postcards and to tell me about the culture and the people that you are, [01:01:00] uh, Capturing, if you will, for, for all of us, for all of us to enjoy. And I, and if you're listening to this, you need to go check out vanishing postcards.
[01:01:08] I've listened to a few episodes and it's fabulous and amazing. Evan. If you wouldn't mind, I would love it. If you would give whatever social media. Uh, that you have so that if people want to find you, that they can.
[01:01:22] Evan Stern: Absolutely. So the, um, you know, if you search, uh, vanishing postcards on Instagram, uh, you'll find it there.
[01:01:29] Um, it also has a, a, a, a Facebook page, just search vanishing postcards. It should turn up. Um, you can also find me on Instagram as well. I'm at Evan stern NYC. Um, and, um, you know, I thank you so much and oh, and, but most important, most crucially, um, you know, please go find, listen to subscribe to vanishing postcards.
[01:01:54] Um, since this is a podcast, uh, you know, whatever, you're listening to this on, I'm quite [01:02:00] confident that you'll find us there. We're on apple, we're on Spotify, we're on all the, uh, you know, whatever platform is out there. We're more than likely on, and I'd be most honored if you'd consider giving us a little.
[01:02:12] Izolda Trakhtenberg: Awesome. And I will actually put all of that in the show notes so that if you're listening to this and you've seen the show notes, you'll be seeing the links to all of it. I just, people learn differently. So I like giving both the audio and the sort of, you can read it visual for it. Uh, Evan, again, I'm really grateful that you took the time to chat with me.
[01:02:32] Me and I, I have one last question, if that's okay. Of course. It's a question I ask everybody who comes on the show and it's a silly question, but I find that it yields some profound results. Yeah. And the question is this, if you could sky write anything for the whole world to see what would you.
[01:02:53] Evan Stern: What would I say for the whole world to see?
[01:02:58] Oh my [01:03:00] goodness. Yeah. So I feel like I need to say something profound, like Buddha or something like that now, or Yoda. My goodness.
[01:03:11] Izolda Trakhtenberg: I've had people say, eat your veggies. So it does not have to be,
[01:03:16] Evan Stern: I mean, it is a cliche. Um, I've, I've heard it many times. Um, but I, I do believe that there is something to be said for the fact that if I were to write this in the sky, I would say luck is the result of preparation meeting opportunity.
[01:03:34] I absolutely believe that to be true. Um, I always do my best to be, uh, you know, prepared and, uh, educate myself and, you know, and, and be ready so that, um, you know, when opportunity comes, you know, luck can, can happen.
[01:03:53] Izolda Trakhtenberg: I love that. I think that's a great way to end this episode, Evan stern, you are fabulous, and I'm [01:04:00] so glad that you were here.
[01:04:01] Thank you. This is the innovative mindset podcast. You have been listening to my wonderful conversation with Evan stern, who is the host of the vanishing postcards podcast, which of course, you know, you need to check out if you're liking what you're hearing, do me a favor, leave a review, let me know comment.
[01:04:20] However you'd like to get in touch. I would appreciate it until next time. This is again, Izolda Trakhtenberg reminding you to listen, learn, laugh, and love a whole lot.
[01:04:36] thanks so much for joining me today. I really appreciate you being here. Please subscribe to the podcast if you're new and if you like what you're hearing, please review it and rate it and let other people know. And if you'd like to be a sponsor of the show, I'd love to meet you on patrion.com/innovative mindset.
[01:04:53] I also have lots of exclusive goodies to share just with the show supporters there today's episode was produced by [01:05:00] Izolda Trakhtenberg and his copyright 2021 as always, please remember, this is for educational and entertainment purposes. Only past performance does not guarantee future results, although we can always hope until next time, keep living in your innovative mindset.
 
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Brain.FM CEO Dan Clark On The App That Helps You Be Your Best Self On Demand

Brain.fm CEO Dan Clark
In a fun coincidence, this episode is brought to you by Brain.fm. I love and use brain.fm every day! It combines music and neuroscience to help me focus, meditate, and even sleep! Because you listen to this show, you can get a free trial.*
URL: https://brain.fm/innovativemindset
If you love it as much as I do, you can get 20% off with this exclusive coupon code: innovativemindset
 
Before he became CEO of Brain.fm, Dan Clark worked as a website and app developer. He switched careers from building an advertising agency and came across Brain.fm. 
In his first session, he bought an account and was so excited after a week of use, he needed to be part of the company. He called 12 times. 
He finally got a job and worked the first month for free. Fast forward, he’s now the CEO, and 2019's Forbes 30 under 30. 
Dan is always excited about how technology can change the world.
Connect with Dan and Brain.fm.
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/brainfmapp/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/brain.fm/
Episode Transcript
Dan Clark
[00:00:00] Dan Clark: [00:00:00] The real mission is to empower everyone around the world to be their best self on demand, full stop.
[00:00:10] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:00:10] Hello, welcome to the innovative mindset podcast. I'm your host Izolda Trakhtenberg on the show. I interview peak performing innovators in the creative social impact and earth conservation spaces or working to change the world. This episode is brought to you by brain FM brain FM combines the best of music and neuroscience to help you relax, focus, meditate, and even sleep.
[00:00:31] I love it and have been using it to write, create, and do some of my deepest work because you're a listener of the show. You can get a free trial head over to brain.fm/innovative mindset. To check it out. If you decide to subscribe, you can get 20% off with the coupon code, innovative mindset, all one word, and now let's get to.
[00:00:54] Hey there and welcome to the innovative mindset podcast. My name is Izolda Trakhtenberg. I'm super [00:01:00] thrilled. You're here and I am incredibly excited about this week's guest. Check this out before he became CEO of brain FM, Dan Clark worked as a website and app developer. He switched careers from building an advertising agency and came across brain FM in his first session.
[00:01:17] He bought an account and was so super excited. After a week of use, he needed to be part of the company. He called them 12 times and he finally got a job with them and worked the first month for free that's how much he believed in it. Fast forward. He's now the CEO and 20 nineteens Forbes, 30 under 30.
[00:01:36] Dan has always excited about how technology can change the world. So that makes them the ideal guests for the innovative mindset podcast. Dan I'm so glad that you're here.
[00:01:43] Dan Clark: [00:01:43] Welcome my pleasure. Thanks for having me.
[00:01:46] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:01:46] Oh, it's absolutely my pleasure. So first of all, it's not often you hear, I will work for you for free.
[00:01:54] What, what made you do that? What made you go, you know, I love this so much that I'm going to, I'm [00:02:00] going to just do whatever it takes to, to be part of this company.
[00:02:03] Dan Clark: [00:02:03] Yeah. So I think it was, um, it was both the product and then also my personal story. So, um, I'm a secretary black belt and I taught martial arts to kids, uh, for a really long time.
[00:02:13] And then as I did that, I started making martial arts websites, apps, and kind of, um, really start optimizing for, uh, financial success. And I hit this point when I was, um, the director of this advertising agency, where. I felt empty. Um, and I felt like I wasn't doing what I really loved, which is helping people.
[00:02:35] And I wanted to get back into that. And at the same time, I was super sensitive to my own focus and energy. Um, and I used to actually work from 10:00 PM to 4:00 AM in the morning to find what we call now, like our flow state. And I ended up leaving the advertising agency, looking for things that I could get excited about and [00:03:00] came across brain FM when it just launched.
[00:03:02] And I remember using it for the first time and being blown away because I was able to get into that magic state of effortless, where it feels like you can fly, um, again, flow state. And we can dive into that later, but I was so enthralled from the first activity and I was like, this can change the world.
[00:03:19] I need to be part of this country. And it was that level of commitment where I was like, I just want to be, this is going to change the world. I want to be part of this rocket ship. Um, call them up a bunch. Um, they didn't really, it was just starting company. And I said, Hey, you know, I'm not in here for the money.
[00:03:34] I'm here for, you know, the ride let's do this. And, um, I guess four, four years later, three years later I became CEO. So it's been a, it's been a wild ride and it's that drive of what can this do for the world and for people around the world, um, that has really driven me to, uh, you know, focus on building the company into what it.
[00:03:57] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:03:57] Oh, I love that. I love the [00:04:00] notion of wanting to change the world for the better, especially through innovation and technology. And I do want to dive into that, but I need to ask a side little question. What martial art are you a second Dornin? Um,
[00:04:13] Dan Clark: [00:04:13] mixed martial arts with a concentration of Krav Maga, muy Thai Kempo, uh, jujitsu, um, few different things in that nature.
[00:04:22] Wow.
[00:04:23] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:04:23] Oh, that's it sounds exciting. I'm a, I'm a showdown in Ikea, so I'm like, oh cool. I'm like, oh yeah, I love it. I love it. I love it. I've been studying martial arts in one form or other since I was a teenager. And I actually find that the martial arts in some ways can help you get into that flow state as well.
[00:04:39] That that sort of change where almost anything is possible. And I would love if you would talk a little bit, you've mentioned flow state. I would love it. If you'd talk a little bit about what brain FM, how does, how does brain FM. Help you do that. If you, if what you want to do is get into that state where everything feels [00:05:00] effortless, where you're calm and you're focused.
[00:05:02] That's wonderful. And I know lots of people, trumpet meditation and all of that brain FM, and I've been using it myself recently. So I'm very excited about it, but how does it do, what does it do to you to help you get into that state?
[00:05:17] Dan Clark: [00:05:17] Yeah, of course. So at brain FM, we make functional music designed to help you focus, relax, and sleep better.
[00:05:23] Um, and the way we do that is, um, your brain has these different neural patterns, right? And they're actually very understood in science. So if you put an EEG on someone's head while they're in focus or relaxing or sleeping, there's a pattern that the brain has. Um, and if you did an MRI, which is measuring the blood flow to different areas of your brain, your blood flow has similar patterns.
[00:05:49] And what we do is we've been able to discover how to add, uh, different rhythmic pulses or different patterns to music. So when you're listening to that [00:06:00] music, your brain starts mirroring those patterns and can quicker switch into better focus, better relax, or better sleep. And then what's really cool about the technology is because you're continually losing this.
[00:06:15] Um, it's not something you have to train and practice that it's something that's, uh, a physiological effect. So we're actually redistributing blood flow in your brain, helping you get to that pattern that we know is science does help, um, and then stay there. And, um, the cool part about it is it's disguised in music.
[00:06:34] Um, it's a patented thing that we've come up with it's it hasn't been done before in this application. Um, and we have tons and tons of science to show the effectiveness of it.
[00:06:45] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:06:45] Wow. Okay. So let's dig into this a little bit. The science says that like, yay. So the science says that your brain is that the blood flow to the brain, the different neural pathways [00:07:00] are, the things are firing.
[00:07:02] The synapses are firing differently. It sounds like. And what does that mean with respect to the music itself? Is the music, is it, is it sub oral or is it something that's the actual rhythm of the pieces themselves? That does that
[00:07:17] Dan Clark: [00:07:17] great question. So, um, first off is when we make music, what we have done is actually build the music from ground up.
[00:07:26] So we don't. We don't like change music. That's already created. We say, Hey, let's first figure out from the beginning, how can we make music that affects people's mental states, right. And a lot of music today, that's responsible. Like you can search on YouTube or Spotify. You can find a bunch of people that claim that they can do this, but they usually take music that's already been created and either change it or relabel it as such.
[00:07:54] And there's been other attempts with science, like binaural beats or isochronic tones that have, uh, had [00:08:00] really limited success, um, to show that this works. Um, and what we've been able to discover is when we start from the ground up, we can do all of the things that you hear in music that, you know, feel, you know, focusing.
[00:08:15] And we can talk about some of those things like sailings reduction and new lyrics. Um, but then we also add these patterns. Um, that act on our brain on a, um, uh, uh, physical level, um, which allow us to align the functional networks of your brain to communicate more effectively. Um, so let me, there's a lot there, so let me break it down.
[00:08:38] So one of the things, yeah, one of the things that we know, and it probably makes sense is that when you listen to music with lyrics in it, it can be distracting. And the reason why is because you either know the lyrics, so you start thinking about what the next lyrics are. It's distracting from the work you're doing, or you're trying to [00:09:00] understand the lyrics.
[00:09:01] And there's no such thing in the brain as multitasking. You're basically switching back and forth between tasks. So even if you're kind of, um, not paying attention to the lyrics or trying to, you know, actively ignore something, it's actually taking energy to do that. So one of the first rules we have is we don't have lyrics in our music.
[00:09:24] There's other rules that we follow, um, which is like salients reduction. Um, and that's the difference between, um, sounds so not having like loud, you know, clashes and other kinds of things, music that stealer attention. And these are based on things that we've been able to observe in the brain that really actually track all the way back to like evolution.
[00:09:45] Um, because we're the descendants of the people that when we are walking in the woods and we heard a twig break, we knew, oh, there's probably a tiger here. That's coming to get me, I'm going to run away. Right. And so what happens is we're making music to [00:10:00] really control the environment and just from an acoustic property alone.
[00:10:04] And one of the reasons why we all love music is because it's really cool that you can put music on and change the. The state that you're in, in a way of, um, you know, associations as a way of like what genres you're listening to. Um, and it acts on the brain, you know, as music does. And then what we've done is, is we do all of those roles and then we apply science on top of it, um, or with it.
[00:10:33] And what we're doing is, is inside of those genres or the different kinds of music that we're playing that are following all those rules were, um, adding these, um, modulations, which are these rapid, uh, frequencies of turning on and off different bands of music and what that's actually doing when you listen to it, um, is it's, it's, um, lining up different functional networks of your brain through a process called entrainment [00:11:00] and what you can kind of think of it as your brain being like a Christmas tree where it's blinking all different times and all different regions.
[00:11:08] Are starting to listen to these patterns that are, um, basically harnessing all these regions and organizing them, um, the process of entrainment mirrors, um, your environment and your, those Christmas tree lights actually all start blinking at the same time, which enables us to hope speed up the transition between, you know, being in a resting state, for example, and then being in a deep focus state.
[00:11:38] Um, so what we're doing here is we're using human composers where you, which are really great at creativity and finding really great things that people, um, want to listen to. And then we're combining it with AI and with scientific research to create a product that basically is a switch, uh, that gets you into a mental [00:12:00] state and the effect, uh, it takes about five minutes to work and then it's sustained as long as you're listening to.
[00:12:09] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:12:09] I keep saying the word wow. After you're done talking because there's so it's, there's so much. Wow. Okay. So there are, so there's something you just said that made me go. Hmm. Is there such a thing as listening too long too? Cause I noticed in, in the app it's like 15 minutes, half an hour or two hours or something like that.
[00:12:32] If you want to do a focusing session, is that a, so that your brain does not get fatigued or was there another reason for making it so that there are these limits?
[00:12:42] Dan Clark: [00:12:42] That's a really great question. So actually in our new apps that we're developing right now, we're moving all of those. Um, that was really designed to give people an option of how to get started, but it really comes down to you.
[00:12:55] So it depends on. Really knowing [00:13:00] yourself and knowing the activity, excuse me, working on. Um, and then, uh, figuring out like, you know, what's, what's best suited for you. So for example, I use, uh, like I'll do a deep work focus, and I usually do about 90 minutes on that. And that's specifically designed for work that, you know, I just have to like crush through like my emails or whatever.
[00:13:21] Um, but when I'm doing, um, you know, like business planning or trying to be creative, like creative, I use our creativity section, which is in the, some of the new apps we're developing and are probably out by the time everyone's listening to this. Um, and that's specifically designed for again that like, you know, being more creative and being more loose and I find best for me in that state is 30 minutes.
[00:13:46] Um, but I know with other people, they have other experiences because everyone's brain is different and we're helping your brain. You know, get to the state that, uh, we, you know, we see works. [00:14:00] Um, and there's some other kinds of personalization that we can dive into as well. But then it's up to you to really learn more about yourself.
[00:14:10] Um, almost like training wheels, riding a bike, and then saying, okay, this is how long I really enjoy riding a bike before it's not fun anymore. Um, and, and that's kind of the, the best thing about the technology. You can use it, you know, some people use it for eight hours a day, um, but it really comes down to what's best for you what feels right?
[00:14:29] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:14:29] Yeah. I think it's empowering to sort of be the driver of your own bus there. And that's what I've noticed in using the focusing thing is that two hours is just a little too long for me, and then I drop it down, but I am amazed at how quickly, and this is something, I guess, that's that flow state that you were talking about?
[00:14:47] What has happened in the last couple of weeks since I've been using the app? Is that. I get to this place where I don't realize that I've been productive. I look back and go, oh, look at all these [00:15:00] things I've finished. But I was so deep into them that the passage of time sort of went away. And so I was wondering when someone is using the app, that flow state seems to be an ideal.
[00:15:15] What happens if they can't get there? Do you have feedback from users that are like, no, this, I don't know how to make this work for me. And what do you do when someone says that when someone goes, you know, is there, is there, for example, uh, perhaps a neurological issue that someone might have that might preclude them from being able to use the app because of the way the app interacts with
[00:15:37] Dan Clark: [00:15:37] the brain.
[00:15:38] Very good question. Um, let's unpack that. So there's, there's definitely neurological diverse people. Um, everyone has different neurological diversity, um, and that could be spectrum of, you know, ADHD, for example, um, it's a myth, it's a common misconception that you have ADHD or you don't, um, it's in reality is [00:16:00] everyone has different levels of ADHD and all the other kinds of neurological stuff.
[00:16:05] Um, so there could be things that have proclivities across, um, that, that, you know, um, maybe people have challenges with. However, uh, we actually find that more neurological diverse people have better effects with brain FM, um, believe it or not. So we were working with, um, autism, ADHD, um, different kinds of anxiety.
[00:16:29] And we do a lot of research on the side there. Um, some of the things that we do for personalization and, and some of maybe. The faster, more direct answer to your question is that, um, our science, um, is really our power level of the music. We call it their neural effect level. And some people are very sensitive to it and some people are less sensitive.
[00:16:54] And what, um, if people are having challenges, finding, you know, their flow state, I would [00:17:00] actually say, we have to find, you know, turn that knob up. So it's more intense or turn it down. And that's, um, some of the reasons that you hear me mentioning this new app that we're creating, because what we wanted, we found that this works for all individuals, because it's a process of entrainment that we naturally do.
[00:17:19] So actually you and I talking you're in training to my voice and my, you know, I'm doing the same to you. And that's an effect of being able to infer what I'm going to say next, um, and different kinds of environmental factors and, uh, Basically the, the, the answer to your question is, uh, you know, we found that this does work for many, many people because it works with our brain.
[00:17:44] It's not like hacking it. It's, it's something that your brain naturally already does. And what we have to just find is fine tuning for Bob versus Samantha, you know, what the specific power level that they need. And then what kind of, um, acoustic qualities of the music [00:18:00] is best suited for them like the brightness or the complexity, um, and then really packaged it together.
[00:18:05] Um, and that's something that we are constantly working on to make sure that every time you go in it's the best experience. Um, and then if people don't, if people have challenges, they can reach out to customer support and we can definitely help them find more specific crafted music for them.
[00:18:22] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:18:22] I love that.
[00:18:22] And I love that notion of the personalization of it that lets you again, stay in the driver's seat of what works for you. What doesn't work for you. The, the music that I've listened to for the focusing has been fantastic for me because I like it. And I liked that. You said that it's not jarring. I noticed that, that there weren't any big, you know, drum crescendos or anything like that.
[00:18:43] It was, it was much more of a, of a gentle rolling Hills instead of climbing mountains, which I think is great. But you said something that I think is really interesting about the ADF. My husband has add, I talk about it on this podcast all the time, because he's very artistic and creative and innovative, but [00:19:00] has trouble focusing.
[00:19:01] And part of the thing that I'm, I'm, I'm totally gonna get this for him so that he can use it to. And part of the thing that I'm thinking about is when someone has a, neurodivergence a component to the way they think that is different. What, and you said customer service, it would be great, you know, so they can reach out, but what can they do on the fly?
[00:19:26] What can they, is there a choice they can make within the music? Or is that, or is that coming in the next version of the app to go? No, I'm not, I'm not focusing the way I want to be, or I want to be doing something differently than I am. Can I choose within the app to make the experience better for myself in the moment, or is that something that's going to be coming down the pike?
[00:19:46] Dan Clark: [00:19:46] So you can actually right now, so, um, in our, in our iOS and Android version of the app, right now, you can actually go into the power level settings and select one, two or three. And the new version of the app, we give you even more hand control of, [00:20:00] of showing you the personalization engine we're using, where you're, you're falling in that category.
[00:20:05] Um, and then able to like play with it a little bit. Um, but yeah, I mean, that's, that's really the power of, of our music and w and our functional music on how we're approaching this, um, and how we differentiate between Spotify. So we really want to make sure that, you know, um, as a user where you fall in that category and give you the ability to see and feel the difference.
[00:20:26] Um, and it's really interesting because you may need some power level. You know, for focus and you need a complete, like, let's say you need, um, so people with, um, higher ADHD usually perform better with higher power levels. So let's say it's a level three, right? And in sleep, it's not level three, it's a level one, you know?
[00:20:49] Um, and they don't necessarily correlate. Um, but again, that's what we're trying to do here is, is create music that you want to listen to. Um, you said a good point of it's not jarring. It's [00:21:00] actually, we try really hard to make music that you enjoy listening to, but you don't love, um, because we don't want you to like be distracted by, wow, I've really loved this song.
[00:21:10] And we have, you know, we have great music. We have award-winning composers that do this. Um, but then, you know, again, giving you also the power to control the power, um, and then learn more about yourself and, you know, optimize, um, as you choose to.
[00:21:29] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:21:29] That's so interesting because I really liked the songs, the city too, so that's good. Uh, I tend to like instrumental music a lot. So it was very, you know, you said, well, we want you to like it, but not love it. And I think that's really, that's really fascinating because then it's easier to keep it sort of in the background while you focus on the other things that you're trying to actually do.
[00:21:51] And if we can, if we can change, focus just a little bit, see what I did there. Uh, if we can, I didn't actually, I've English, isn't [00:22:00] my first language. And so I cannot pun, but when I do, it's always, I always want to do a little, a little happy dance because I actually punched in and did it. Let's talk about stress.
[00:22:10] Sure. So one of the things that you can do with the app is do a relaxation. So there's a relaxation arm of this and that is it. Is it sort of hijacking the amygdala or, or are you going by the time it gets to the hypothalamus? Like where, where does the app interact with the brain when it comes to that stress fight flight or freeze response?
[00:22:34] How does
[00:22:35] Dan Clark: [00:22:35] that yeah, great question. And I think there may be some answers here that my neuroscientist is better suited than I am, but I'll try my best. Um, so we're actually using the same exact technology that we're using for flow states and focus and even relax or sorry, sleep and what we're doing with relaxes, we have a different neural pattern and that pattern is, um, again, redistributing blood flow in your brain [00:23:00] that then because of that has different functions.
[00:23:03] So. We're not necessarily going to the medulla or the, you know, all the different parts of the brain and specifically, um, uh, focusing now I'm doing puns, but, um, we're not specifically like hijacking, you're changing something of that. What we're doing is we're actually changing the whole brain. Um, and that effect is, is one.
[00:23:25] I think it makes more sense because your brain is so, um, um, you know, we know more about Pluto that we know about our brain in some aspects, like memory creation, things like that. There's, there's still a lot of things that we're just discovering how the brain works. Um, and for, for relax specifically, um, we, we are just creating a different normal pattern.
[00:23:47] We do different genres of music that people associate with like relaxing environments. Um, so the difference between like almost like spa music, um, and then, you know, different chill and instrumental music that's slower. [00:24:00] So we're doing an on both sides. And actually it's really funny because one of the things that we are doing in our medical portion of the company is we're actually investigating relaxation, um, for different kinds of medical treatments.
[00:24:16] And, um, we did this one study where there's a song called wait-lists by mark CARNA union. And it's whole it's it's, it's, there's been BBC articles and stuff. And this was created a few years ago. It's the most relaxing sound in the world. And it was built with neuroscientists and, um, you know, different composers.
[00:24:36] And it was so successful that they actually compared it to a. Um, my, it was some kind of, um, a drug, right. I, I can't remember the exact name. Um, I wouldn't be able to pronounce it probably. Um, but, um, they were, it was, it was that, and it was, it was hailed as the most sound relaxing sound of the world because it's just as effective as this one sedative.
[00:25:00] [00:25:00] And what we did is we said, okay, well, let's see if we can beat it. And in this specific example, we're actually currently doing pilot tests in surgery centers to help people relax before surgery and then wake up after surgery. Well rested, especially because it's, it's very hard not to be stressed before surgery, you know?
[00:25:21] Um, and what's really interesting is we took all the things that waitlist did. We applied all of the technology that we have. And we beat it by like 30%, um, using different kinds of questionnaires of, um, uh, the poems questionnaire. That's, that's the standard in psychology. Um, and from that, now we're going in testing this with pilot data.
[00:25:44] And what's really interesting is it's the same exact technology that we have in our consumer application. Um, and it allows someone to really, you know, press a button. Switch their state. And what's really cool about [00:26:00] this. You know, I, I like, I love meditation. I, I'm a very big proponent of it. Um, but what's really interesting about this is that meditation, you really have to practice.
[00:26:10] Um, and even if you practice and you think you got it, then you practice another 10 times and you're like, no, now I got it. And it just keeps going where this is again, that, that physiological effect. So it will happen in your first five minutes, even if you're mentally not ready to, you know, um, and that's really cool, especially with our busy lives that we have, where if you just say, Hey, I just need five minutes to relax.
[00:26:34] You can actually shift your whole demeanor by switching into this. And that five minutes is actually doing something rather than, you know, hoping it's doing something for example. Um, and I think there's, there's a huge difference in that. Um, because it's, it's almost inactive. Does that make
[00:26:54] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:26:54] sense? It does.
[00:26:56] It absolutely does make sense as I'm a long time meditator, but [00:27:00] I'm a long time frustrated meditator because of that, because there are times when I try to drop down into meditation and the entire time I'm going, I'd really like to be meditating right now. I can't believe I can't shut my brain off, you know?
[00:27:12] And so, so I'm constantly picturing calm oceans for a long time trying to get to that state. So I liked the notion very much of, of being able to get into that state. And I really liked the notion of people in hospitals having access to something that will help them de-stress beforehand. And I did, I did some research and you have a national science foundation grant to study this technology.
[00:27:39] What, how, first of all, how did you get it? And second of all, what exactly is the NSF funding for you to start.
[00:27:47] Dan Clark: [00:27:47] Yeah. Great question. So this was, um, in a, uh, dual, um, effort with Northeastern university with one of our, um, uh, what's the best word. [00:28:00] Um, I guess, you know, we, we have a lot of different partnerships with different academic institutions and, um, this is with one, um, specifically to study ADHD in the brain and as a alternative treatments to medication, um, to, uh, help people with ADHD.
[00:28:17] And what we did specifically for this was, um, and this is where like a lot of our evidence comes from at least for our focus product, um, where we took regular music. Um, we took brain FM. We took brain FM with, and without our technology applied to it. Um, and then we put like a like pink noise. And we basically studied different individuals that were trying to do different video games.
[00:28:45] Um, and these are start tasks which are, um, very standard in, um, measuring someone's performance. And as they did that, we watched them on EEG. We watched them, um, on Fri and we were able to determine that. [00:29:00] When someone is listening to, um, you know, brain FM and someone that has ADHD, um, that different, um, neural pattern or that power level that we can adjust.
[00:29:13] Um, if we turn that up higher, that person has better effects from, uh, the music, then maybe more normalized individuals. Um, and from that, we're actually developing, um, a better product where we learn more about people in that personalized manner. And we can start selecting music based on where someone is on that bell curve of, um, neurodivergence.
[00:29:40] Um, and, and yeah, I mean, it's, it's very exciting because it's something that supports that we actually can help all individuals. And, um, now we can better serve rather than guessing. Um, we have a very great starting point on, um, helping someone get right into that point.
[00:30:01] [00:30:00] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:30:01] That's fascinating. And I, you know, as I said, my husband rich has add, so, so that notion of, uh, being able to focus when you want to is something that I think is incredible. And there's a book that a lot of people with add, read that's called you mean I'm not lazy, crazy or stupid. I don't know if you've ever heard of this book, but it was written a while ago.
[00:30:25] And it was written to people essentially to people who have add and ADHD to sort of let them know you're not lazy. Crazy. You're stupid. You, you have neurodivergence essentially. So I'm wondering in, in the work that you're doing, how. What kind of feedback. I mean, I could go look at the reviews of the app, but what kind of feedback are you getting from people who have these, these divergences and is it, is it helping the consumer as opposed to like, I understand the NSF study and I think that's amazing, but how, what kind of [00:31:00] feedback are you getting from people who have some of these challenges who then are able to perhaps focus some people for the first
[00:31:07] Dan Clark: [00:31:07] time?
[00:31:08] Yeah. So I'm happy to answer that, but before I do, I want to take a note and say that, um, I think everyone has super powers. Um, and people that for a long time in neurodiversity have said that they don't when, when they relook at it and they can really start harnessing it. They, you know, like you, you were mentioning your husband is very skilled as in creativity.
[00:31:32] Um, and that's such a super power. So I first just want to take a second and say that. You know, there's so many great gifts that people have. And, um, with ADHD, it's really hard to find people's, but it's really, and that's one of the mission statements that we have is really to help everyone be plus one, w we think we're a plus one product, so we can help everyone go to the next level, be their best self on demand.
[00:31:59] Um, [00:32:00] so you just, you just struck a chord with me. I want to make sure I brought that up.
[00:32:03] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:32:03] Um, and that's great because that was going to be my very next question.
[00:32:07] Dan Clark: [00:32:07] So yeah, I mean, I, you know, for me specifically, like I'm, I'm, I've always, you know, I was always working for them. Um, I'm not an early riser, right? I am now I wake up at seven o'clock, but for a long time I could not function.
[00:32:23] And I, you know, I dropped out of high school because of it. Um, and if you ever talked to my teachers, they would say this kid's not going to go anywhere. Um, and it wasn't until I started realizing, you know, tools through martial arts and tools through brain FM on, you know, how I can use these tools to be better.
[00:32:42] And, you know, after I saw the, to answer your question, but, um, you know, I think. That's what brain FM is. Ultimately, it's a tool, you know, we can't build a house for you, but we're the hammer that lets you build a house more effectively than, you know, without a tool. You know? So I think that's, that's [00:33:00] important.
[00:33:00] Um, as far as feedback we get from customers, um, we have, you know, over 2 million downloads and many users from around the world. Um, we actually have an internal channel called love letters and raving fans. And, um, we have, you know, from people saying this is the best thing ever. Um, too, some people have lowered their medication, you know, with ADHD, you have some people that, um, are, you know, like literally crying while they write emails and, um, really hard, you know, testimonials of how we've had a major impact in their life.
[00:33:32] Um, and you know, without getting into too many details and sharing things that I can't, um, you know, this is the reason why. Ultimately we build brain FM is, is to really harness that, um, you know, we have, we, we don't like right now, we've been really focusing on the science and really focusing on the company, uh, for, you know, the next 10 years and really laying the foundation where right now we don't do [00:34:00] a lot of marketing.
[00:34:01] Um, and even with that being said, we still have tens of thousands of people that come to us, um, every week to try us out because it's all referrals right now. Um, and that really, I guess, goes, goes to beyond, you know, me just coming on here and saying how great it is. Um, it's really like our customers that are shouting about, Hey, there's this secret tool that I've found that lets me become a superhuman.
[00:34:27] Um, and again, that's why we do it.
[00:34:32] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:34:32] I love it. I love it. I keep pausing after you're done speaking because I'm taking it all in. And the thing is that I'm, you know, speaking of that, that notion of super power being a superhero. I, I agree with you. I think we all have our own unique. My focus is almost always creativity and innovation, but I think we all have our own unique genius.
[00:34:54] Your, you know, unique, creative genius, innovative genius, whatever it is, we all have something [00:35:00] that sets us apart. And I'm wondering, what are the uses do you think of looking forward instead of, and, and I forgive me if I'm speaking out of turn, but this notion of using brain FM for. Accessing the parts of your creative genius, for example, that you want to access being very purposeful with those kinds of actions while using the app.
[00:35:25] What are your thoughts about doing that? About someone who goes, I want to hack my creative center and I want to really open it up. Can the app do that? Will the app be able to do that? Do you want the app to be able to do that? What are your thoughts on that?
[00:35:39] Dan Clark: [00:35:39] Ooh, lots of really great questions. Um, so I think, you know, the first, so there's some things that I can say, and there's some things that I can't say because we're still, you know, evaluating and looking at things.
[00:35:51] Um, I think the first thing that's important is, and you know, we've talked about this with our science, but we're science first. Um, and that means that [00:36:00] everything that we do we want to make sure is actually true. Um, and we have evidence to show that. And I think that there's a lot of other companies that say they can do X, Y, and Z.
[00:36:11] Um, but when we look at the science and we look at evidence, um, it's not true or it's, it's, you know, oh yeah. We asked, you know, all of our users and we asked how, how good they feel. And they said 10 out of 10. So that means, um, and we, we really like, before I answer this, the reason why see that is because at the end of the day, we want to make a product that actually does better everyone, because it's way easier to focus on just building an amazing product.
[00:36:42] And I think that, um, with that being said, um, there are scientific limitations. Um, so the whole company, you know, we're designed around basically we have neuroscientists on the, on the team. We have a, um, uh, MIT and, um, Harvard graduate that works [00:37:00] for us. Auditory neuroscientists. He's a genius. And the way we create this company is that we fund science directly instead of, um, in other companies where breakthrough happens in science, and then five years later, a product comes out.
[00:37:14] We say, Hey, how can we make it so that we're investing in science? And then that makes the product better because the product's so good. So many people start using us. We have more money to invest in science and the cycle continues. And when I look at the future of where we're at, I think that it's really first is the ability to deliver optimal results for everyone.
[00:37:40] So looking at, um, someone coming in, learning about them and saying, Hey, this is my button. So I can get my creativity when I need to. And I can find that flow state, and I'm really excited. And this is something that I add to my habits. That's really important. Um, if you just use this, like once a month, It, [00:38:00] it will work, but it's way better when you use this consecutively and you train your brain to be creative.
[00:38:06] Um, and we can talk about some of the habits that I would suggest with this, um, program. Um, but then the next thing is, is then for someone to learn more about themselves to your part, right? So now someone looks at wearables and they look at, oh, well for me to get in a really great flow state, you know, I can use brain FM, but I also understand that if I'm drinking coffee, it takes me out of that.
[00:38:30] And I rather drink tea or whatever, you know, and as we start building, I think more connected world with more data, um, I see brain FM being a role or a pillar in that data to be able to help someone understand more about what makes them. Act the way they do, you know, and then be able to help, you know, learn and, and, and do it better, you know?
[00:38:57] So there's, there's definitely a lot of stuff there. [00:39:00] Um, and then I think it goes beyond, which is some of the medical things that we're currently investigating, um, you know, pre and post off I mentioned, but we're also searching Alzheimer's autism, ADHD, um, and a lot of other kinds of methods to help people and excuse me, um, when we combine all of those together, um, you know, it's, it's really exciting.
[00:39:23] Um, you know, one of the reasons why I just love and, and put so much effort into building this company is because it doesn't matter. Anything as long as you're human. So it doesn't matter what language you speak. Doesn't matter how much money you make. Doesn't matter, you know, your sex or your gender, or, you know, all these things.
[00:39:42] It matters that we're all human and our brains are incredibly similar and incredibly unique at the same time. And I think, um, you know, really that's, that's what, um, we're going to see as we move forward is what can science to, what can our human brains do? And then [00:40:00] how can we, you know, always. Live up to the potential.
[00:40:03] We want to be, um, so lots of stuff there, obviously speaking directly from the heart. So I apologize for the, the long tear, but, um, but yeah, I mean, there's, it's definitely a mission driven company for sure.
[00:40:15] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:40:15] Absolutely. And, and do not apologize ever for speaking from the heart. That, that to me is one of the pillars of, of what makes us a human is, is being able to express ourselves directly from that, that place of where we really believe it.
[00:40:30] And you do. And I think that's amazing. Uh, there, you said a couple of things that, uh, well, you said many things that now I want to spend the next six hours talking to you about, but there, there are some things here that you said that I think are really interesting and you said you want to help everybody.
[00:40:46] And this is one of those ridiculous questions that I'm sure you get, but I'm going to ask it anyway. Um, it is it's about accessibility. So this, you sort of have to be a hearing person. To be able to use [00:41:00] the app. Right. I imagine is there, is there something that can, that can work for someone who is deaf and is there something that can work for someone who is tone deaf, which is different than being than being deaf or hearing impaired?
[00:41:15] Dan Clark: [00:41:15] Yeah, great questions. So first off is, uh, tone deaf actually doesn't, um, block someone from using brain FM because we're not doing tones, we're doing a modulation, so it's the on and offs of things. Um, so actually a lot of people with hearing impairments can still use brain FM. Um, and if you're listening to this and you may have questions about that, reach out to our support team and we'll be able to give you a specific answer.
[00:41:41] Um, but what's really interesting is let's pretend someone can't hear anything at all. Um, we can still help people. And one of the other ways to do this is using light. Um, so what we're, what we're using right now is, is, is sound because it's a neuromodulator right. And that's really those patterns that we're doing.
[00:42:00] [00:42:00] So we can do those patterns, right. And sound in touch. Um, I don't think we could do them in smell. That would be weird, but you know, we have those three mediums that we can play with. Right. And when we, um, do touch through skin, it's called Viber acoustics. Um, your skin can take in, um, modulations. It's just less sensitive way, dramatically, less sensitive than our eyes in our ears.
[00:42:26] Ears are better because we can kind of like hide things, um, in, in hearing. That's why we've chosen audio, but you can also do things in light. And some of the things that we, you know, play with is, you know, doing both of those at the same time, but there's definitely, there's definitely things. For sure that that lot of, uh, that we were on the cusp of investigating and figuring out, um, and, uh, really the, the secret is, again, those modulations that allow us to control and create those patterns for [00:43:00] people.
[00:43:00] Um, you know, the one reason why we don't do light is because I think it's like one out of 18,000 people have, um, epilepsy, epilepsy. Yeah. And, and this is something that can't, that people don't have with sound. So, uh, bringing in femme is actually the safest medium for a neuromodulator at the current time.
[00:43:19] And, um, that's why, like everything is purpose built and designed, um, for safety as well as, you know, making sure that we have, you know, the right effects. Um, so, you know, there may be ways around it around, you know, epilepsy and things of that nature, but that's really the future to, to find out. Um, and yeah, I'm curious.
[00:43:39] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:43:39] Wow. Fantastic. I love it. I love it. I love it. Okay. Uh, again, I, as I said, I can keep you for the next six hours. And so I have just a few more questions if it's okay with you.
[00:43:52] Dan Clark: [00:43:52] Yeah, of course. This is fun. I mean, I'm very, very, I can talk about this all day.
[00:43:57] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:43:57] Oh, yay. Good. So [00:44:00] a lot of the things that you said, you know, especially looking at visual and everything, I come back to the amygdala.
[00:44:06] I come back to that notion of the spot in the brain, the process, you know, takes in what you see and takes and what you hear and decides if there's danger. And this is a strange question, but if you're a long time brain FM user, is it really just like a T turn it on, turn it off, or is it going to develop.
[00:44:29] Um, like I know that once you're in, once the groove has been developed at the neural pathway, it's, it's more likely that that, that particular neural pathway will go again. So is there ever a time that you envision that people will not need brain FM because they've developed those groups for themselves?
[00:44:46] Or is it always going to be a there's the sympathetic nervous system? There's the parasympathetic nervous system and depending on which one needs to be fired up right now, that's what the amygdala and the hypothalamus are going to do. Do you have thoughts about that? And if so, what
[00:44:58] Dan Clark: [00:44:58] are they? Yeah, [00:45:00] so we have some first notions of it.
[00:45:02] Um, but we haven't done science on long-term effects of brain FM, um, for, you know, years and years and years. Um, but we have done, uh, some, I guess, leading, um, research and that basically shows that, uh, it's kind of like running, right? So if you become really good at running that there's a certain level of speed that you can achieve.
[00:45:29] Um, that your gains are, I guess, less, um, however, if you get really, really good at running, you still have to run. Right. Um, and you can kind of think of this as almost like a wind on your back, right? So you're running and what we're doing is we're, we're helping you run faster and feel what running faster is like, um, and, and helping, you know, push you along into that.
[00:45:55] And, you know, on one side you could say, well, you know, I was [00:46:00] running six miles an hour and now we can run eight miles an hour. Um, and I know what that feels like. So I'm not going to use this, this wind or this, this effect that's helping me, you know, go two miles faster. I'm just gonna, I'm gonna get to that myself.
[00:46:15] And I think the argument would be, if you can always run faster, you know, with that way, Always run with the wind on your back. You know what I mean? Um, that might be very abstract. Um, what we're finding is that yes, um, as someone uses the product, those neural pathways develop and someone can get into higher creativity or flow state faster.
[00:46:40] Um, and I think that that is really the trigger that allows someone to get there. But I don't, I don't necessarily see this ever being someone. Now doesn't need that, where they can just close their eyes and get into it. Um, but you know, we'll, we'll have to see. Um, and, and ultimately I think that the [00:47:00] goal of what we're really looking for is not necessarily being the training wheels, but being the, uh, vehicle to help someone.
[00:47:09] Um, and, uh, that's, that's really the goal that we have. I think we would, our whole approach would be different if we were a training wheels, you know, program, um, where we want to be, okay, Hey, you don't have to run anymore. You just get in this car and we'll get you there in five minutes. And that's really the goal of, of brain FM, um, at least right now.
[00:47:31] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:47:31] And that was actually going to be my next, literally, what is the goal? What is your goal for the company? So, um, I do, I, you, you mentioned. That, uh, earlier about habits. I'd love to get your thoughts on the, on, on what you think in sort of an, I know you said you drive the, the person who's using the app drives the bus and they're the ones who choose.
[00:47:51] But if you have habits, if you have thoughts on what is sort of an optimal way of getting into it as a new user, I would love to know that too. But, but if somebody [00:48:00] goes, okay, I'm gonna download the app, I'm gonna see what it's like, what is the best thing? And I, and I, I just gave up caffeine. So I'm very excited to, to hear you say, well, maybe caffeine, isn't great for it.
[00:48:10] So, so tell me, what are some of the habits that someone should have, uh, in order, or might have in order to make best use of the app and habits serve their needs
[00:48:19] Dan Clark: [00:48:19] best? Yeah, of course. So I'm going to say, you know, I'll say some of my habits, but I really encourage people to develop healthy habits that they test themselves.
[00:48:27] Um, that's really important because again, everyone. So, um, the first thing is just, you know, habits. And if you haven't read, um, atomic habits is just a fantastic book that shares how habits really shape our lives. And it's just so important to have those. And again, brain FM is, is not going, it's not a magician, but it is a tool, right?
[00:48:47] So you have to make sure that you are using the tool effectively. And I think with creativity, uh, for your audience, it's very challenging to be creative on demand. Um, and the best way [00:49:00] to develop that is actually to force yourself to try, right? So building in habits of work blocks, and if you look at my calendar, what I actually have is these work sprints where I say, Hey, for the 60 minutes, every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, I'm going to be creative.
[00:49:22] And you know, what's challenging is when we don't feel like being creative, right. It's by training our brain that, Hey, this is a time where I do creative work and it it's creating these neural pathways. Um, and you know, you are developing how to be creative, um, on a schedule that you want to be rather than when your brain happens to be, you know, so I think that's just extremely important.
[00:49:47] And for me, what I do is I actually have deep works, uh, sessions in the morning. Um, I do, uh, I changed this all the time. So if you hear me on other podcasts, it's because I'm always experimenting myself. [00:50:00] But normally what I do is, uh, I'll put, excuse me, deep work on, in the morning for about 30 minutes or so.
[00:50:06] And in there I take out a journal and I write down the top things that I have to do today. How do I feel? And I do a complete brain dump so I can get all of the feelings and emotions and all that stuff aside. And then I say, what do I have. From there. I basically finished a session with the top things that I have to do.
[00:50:28] I take a break, um, I'll sometimes put on relax music or go for a walk or sometimes at the same time do both. And then I come back and do another working session. And what's really important is, um, you know, developing not only the habits to, you know, sit down and work or could you create a moment, um, you know, creative habits, but also having consistency.
[00:50:52] So for me, I, I drink iced coffee every day. Um, but you can drink ice tea or whatever you need to. Um, but it's really important, you know, have [00:51:00] a clean desk to have the same, because what happens is it builds all of the distractions that could happen that in a new environment, it's all erased. And then all of your energy, you know, using brain FM is then focused into, okay, this is the task that I have in front.
[00:51:19] And what's cool about, you know, again, the tool is not only do we have all of this science and all of these different kinds of things, we also have different tricks that allow you to get engaged. So we actually use 3d spatial technology. Um, so a lot of our music sounds like it's actually coming slightly in front of you, which is almost like drawing your attention to the work that you're doing.
[00:51:40] Um, I forgot to mention that before, but you know, through a combination of habits and then, you know, getting like going to the gym, right. That's, that's really what you're doing. Um, it allows you to constantly perform and then once you're constantly performing, it really helps you break through to the next.
[00:52:01] [00:52:00] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:52:01] Sure. At some point you hit a plateau, I guess. And then, then from there, that's the springboard up to the next and the next and the next. And I, I love that. Uh, let me, let me ask you, this is you've, you've mentioned, you've mentioned bits and pieces, but I'd love to know what your, what your Dan, what your mission is for, for your company.
[00:52:23] What is the mission that you have long-term to change the
[00:52:28] Dan Clark: [00:52:28] world? Yeah, so the, the real mission is to empower everyone around the world to be their best self on demand, full stop, you know, um, I think a lot of people in life, um, you know, through different kinds of mechanisms, they never, they, they get obstructed from their goals and they, they get obstructed by the goals by having maybe, you know, previous failures or having writer's block or, you know, um, motivation block, or maybe it's just being.
[00:52:59] Too into their [00:53:00] goals and being too stressed out where they need a perspective change or they can't sleep. You know? And, and what I, what I believe truly is that if we enable people to be their best self and whatever that means for that individual, whether it means curing, um, or not necessarily caring, but helping them treat, you know, um, their sleep challenges or helping them achieve flow state when they want to, or helping them chill out because they work really, really hard and they just need to take 10 minute breaks.
[00:53:30] Um, if we can do that, then collectively as a human race, we enable everyone to help each other more effectively. And if I can be the, um, I don't know, the, the conduit to allow people to really unlock their true potential. Um, that's my mission in life and also mission at brain-a-thon.
[00:53:57] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:53:57] I'm taking all of this in. That was, that was lovely. [00:54:00] Uh, and I love, I love the notion of collective change based on everybody feeling better, being better and doing better. My, my, my word for this, for this year. And hopefully for the next 40, 60, 80 years is compassion. And it sounds to me like compassion for yourself.
[00:54:24] If you start with yourself, then it, then things, you know, things sort of flow from there. And with brain FM, How, what is the thought for you there? As far as you know, you're doing relaxation, you're doing sleep and you're doing focus. What about in gendering feelings of joy or, or feelings of compassion or anything like that?
[00:54:49] Like can, can the app, is that something that you would ever be interested in in helping people with someone who might have challenges of depression or anxiety to, [00:55:00] to address some of those challenges with this
[00:55:04] Dan Clark: [00:55:04] app? Yeah, it's, it's a great, great question. Um, and we, we are definitely working on it. I can tell you that.
[00:55:11] Um, it's, it's a little bit, it's, it's complicated. Um, I, I guess it's the simplest way. Um, and that reason is because joy is derived from things. Um, and if we gave someone artificial joy, That doesn't necessarily fix where joy comes from, you know, and I think that as we look at it and we peel this back, um, joy also means different things for different people and how they experience joy.
[00:55:41] So it's a very convoluted challenge. And one of the reasons why we, we specifically don't say, we can make you happy, but we can help you focus, which will make you happy. Um, the, our angle on that is, is again, if we can help people be better or more efficient in [00:56:00] the activities they're doing, then they can move one step closer to treating, um, certain core problems, I guess, or core challenges.
[00:56:13] Um, and we, we definitely have people that have, have, you know, touted us as the cure, as their personal care for, you know, depression or, um, really, really challenging times in their life. Um, we have many, many people that write to us about that. Um, but I, I don't, because again, we're science first. I don't feel comfortable ever saying that we are the cure for that, but we can help people achieve it and we'll help them look for it together kind of thing.
[00:56:40] Um, unless something changes in our research.
[00:56:45] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:56:45] Interesting. And that just made me come back to the question of awareness. Like self-awareness when, when I'm using the app, one of the things that happens is that there is that there is again, that flow state where Ty and I love that [00:57:00] state when time passed and you don't realize time has passed, you know, because you've been working so into what you're doing, but then there's a self-awareness aspect of it.
[00:57:08] And that's the slowing down. And the difference there for me is sort of the sympathetic versus the parasympathetic nervous system. So in the relaxation part, what happens if, if you, if you have any data on this, what happens to people's sense of self when they're in that relaxed state? Not so much the focus state, but the relaxed one?
[00:57:29] Dan Clark: [00:57:29] Uh, yeah. Great question. Um, it's something that w you know, we, we do have to do more research in, um, the, the challenging stuff with gathering data for. Some of those states is that it's very personal and introspective and there's not a lot of site like, like purely scientific, like, uh, analysis to like, you know, figure that out.
[00:57:55] Um, it's more, it's more of a personal thing, but you [00:58:00] know, with, with flow state, with relaxation, with meditation, I think, you know, self-awareness is really what happens from it because it's a perspective change. And I I'm I'm want to be certain and say that this is me talking about myself personally, but I think when I breached these higher states or these more developed states that I'm currently, you know, operating in, it allows me to really be, uh, you know, turned into more of an observer as, you know, you're working or as you're relaxing and.
[00:58:31] Break the cycle of doing, and now the cycle of, you know, understanding a little bit, um, which enables us to, you know, work on ourselves. Um, I, this actually reminds me of the habits thing, and I think what's interesting is that, you know, humans are really the only animals that can look at themselves and change anything about themselves that they want to, including their habits and the way they think and all of that.
[00:58:58] And when we go [00:59:00] to the deepest level, um, it's us first wanting to change us saying, I am going to change, and this is a plan that I'm going to do. I'm not going to say that to myself anymore. I'm going to do this instead. And then, you know, work and correct it and build, and you know, that's, what's inspiring and why I want, you know, personally, and then why the company is set up to help people be their best self.
[00:59:24] Because if we can do that, we can allow people to work. All the other things that, um, you know, people can really, you know, dive into and, and, um, you know, brain FM is just definitely not the one-stop solution. It's one of many tools, but, um, you know, it definitely enables people to, um, unlock different levels that they didn't maybe know they had and then start questioning and, and, you know, bettering and, and, um, exploring.
[00:59:57] And I think that's, um, you [01:00:00] know, an exploration and mindfulness or whatever it may be. Um, and it's a personal journey journey.
[01:00:07] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [01:00:07] It does sound like it's an individual journey. And it's one that I think I come back to the notion of small steps are still steps. Right? So if you, if you do it 100%, you build the habit of it.
[01:00:20] That, yeah. It just makes, it makes all the difference in the world because you always, like you said, you come, you eventually get to that plateau where you're like, okay, now I'm ready for the next level, the next step. And, and it sounds like brain FM. And it certainly, I mean, for me, you know, I'm a convert. I love, I love the, the state of being able to focus pretty deeply on the things that I choose to focus on instead of being distracted away from things.
[01:00:49] So I think that, because we're hyper-stimulated and I wonder about that. I know again, I told you only a few more questions, but there is something here to me that [01:01:00] we are living in a really hyper-stimulated. World where there's stuff coming at us all the time, whether it's texts or social media or the, you know, the streetlights or whatever, when, when you're in that state of hyperstimulation and you put in the headphones or the earbuds or whatever, and you put on brain FM, is there ever a war between the hyperstimulation of all the stuff going on around you versus what brain FM helps you do?
[01:01:30] And if so, how does that work?
[01:01:33] Dan Clark: [01:01:33] Yeah, so, you know, really, I wouldn't necessarily say it a war, but we are. The mirror of the environment that we're in. Right? So, you know, when we're in, we're surrounded by technology, we're surrounded by distractions. And because of that, our brain is hyperactive. It's, it's always bouncing around different things.
[01:01:54] What do you put in brain FM what's happening is you're changing your environment first for sound. [01:02:00] So you're kind of insulating yourself and escaping a little bit of some of the things. And especially with sound canceling headphones, it's like the perfect fit. Um, and then because of that, then you start mirroring a different environment.
[01:02:13] And this new environment is the music and the different kinds of science in the music, which enables us to truly have a different response to a different ed environment. Um, And then that has the effect. Um, you know, as we talked about that's triggers these other actions.
[01:02:32] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [01:02:32] Yeah. Yeah. I liked the entrainment that you mentioned earlier,
[01:02:35] Dan Clark: [01:02:35] 100%.
[01:02:36] You got it.
[01:02:36] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [01:02:36] Right, right, right, right. Got it. Okay. Yeah, that was, that was, I was like, Hmm. There was one other little thing that I wanted to make sure about. And I'm so glad that you addressed it. Well, Dan. Thrilled to pieces that you took the time to be here. And I would love it. If you wouldn't mind give speaking of hyperstimulation, if you could give where someone who's [01:03:00] going, I need brain FM, where they can find you, if you have social media channels or anything like that, that, that someone who wants to know more could go to, I would love it.
[01:03:08] If you'd say what those are, there'll be in the show notes, but people learn differently as we both know. So I'd love it. If you could say it so people can hear it too. Yeah.
[01:03:15] Dan Clark: [01:03:15] Yeah, of course. So you can go onto the app stores and download bringing data FM, or you can go to brain.fm. Um, so it's, it's just, you know, brain.fm and that'll bring you to our website, which, um, we actually have free trials for everyone to do no credit card required, um, which allows people to fully feel the music with no pressure or stress or anything like that.
[01:03:38] Um, and really see, is this something that, um, they can integrate it into their life? Um, so, you know, if you're interested, feel free to give it a shot. Um, it is something that, um, you know, I personally, uh, love and still use every single day and so to a many other million people. So I'm very excited to be here and, uh, [01:04:00] really enjoyed the conversation.
[01:04:01] Um, and I'll definitely, uh, have to come back to that.
[01:04:05] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [01:04:05] Oh, that's great. I appreciate it. And do you have time for one more question?
[01:04:09] Dan Clark: [01:04:09] Sure. One more. Let's
[01:04:10] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [01:04:10] do it. Okay. It's a simple question. I ask everyone who's on the show. It's really simple, but it, I find that it yields some profound answers. And here's the question.
[01:04:20] If you had an airplane that could sky write anything for the whole world to see, what would you say?
[01:04:26] Dan Clark: [01:04:26] Oh, uh, that's not a simple question. Um, I let's see if I had an airplane to write anything in the sky. What would I say? Um, I don't know. Uh I'm I, you probably can't write paragraphs in the sky, huh? Um, I know, I, I don't know.
[01:04:45] I would just, it's all it, like, it all comes down to really passion, I think. Um, and, and, and belief. And I think that I always encourage people to find, uh, the thing that [01:05:00] makes them, you know, really alive and feels like they're doing things, um, and really, um, you know, allows them to be that. And, you know, there may be some people hearing this that are in a job that maybe they love, or they don't love, but it allows them to do something that they love.
[01:05:17] And I think that's, you know, that's really important and, and allowing people to be better again, um, finding passion and, and wanting to be better, um, allows people to do that. Um, I think maybe I would refine that word and say curious, um, you know, curiosity, you know, curious to be better curious to fully explore life.
[01:05:39] Um, I think that's something that, um, you know, I I'm sure everyone listening to this podcast already shares, but I'd love it. Um, you know, if the world was more curious as a whole.
[01:05:50] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [01:05:50] All right. I think be more curious is probably a really good thing to say up in the sky. Uh, Dan, Dan, once again, thank you so much.
[01:05:57] I appreciate you being here. This [01:06:00] is Izolda Trakhtenberg for the innovative mindset podcast. This has been an incredible conversation. I'm so thrilled that Dan Clark joined me. If you want to know more about brain FM, you know what to do, go find it, go download it, go use it. I personally love it until next time I remind you to listen, learn, laugh, and love a whole lot.
[01:06:24] Thanks so much for joining me today. I really appreciate you being here. Please subscribe to the podcast if you're new and if you like what you're hearing, please review it and rate it and let other people know. And if you'd like to be a sponsor of the show, I'd love to meet you on patrion.com/innovative mindset.
[01:06:41] I also have lots of exclusive goodies to share just with the show supporters. Today's episode was produced by Izolda Trakhtenberg and his copyright 2021 as always. Please remember, this is for educational and entertainment purposes. Only past performance does not guarantee future results, although we can [01:07:00] always hope until next time, keep living in your innovative minds.
 

Never Lose Another Idea Again

How To Never Lose Another Idea Again
Keep track of your ideas all in one easy-to-access place.
This episode is brought to you by Brain.fm. I love and use brain.fm every day! It combines music and neuroscience to help me focus, meditate, and even sleep! Because you listen to this show, you can get a free trial.*
URL: https://brain.fm/innovativemindset
If you love it as much as I do, you can get 20% off with this exclusive coupon code: innovativemindset
 
If you're like me and you have too many ideas bubbling up to keep track of all of them in your head, you need the Idea Doc. I designed it for myself to keep my ideas, things I want to ponder, and quick to-dos on track and in one easy-to-access place.
Why might you want to have this one easy place to keep track of all your ideas?
Here are just a few reasons.
It can clarify your stance on things
They can give you more fodder for what you’re already working on
They can give you perspective and clarity
They can help you innovate, make changes, gain focus, or even not do a thing if that’s what you decide.
But that’s the thing. Because you have your ideas in one place, you do get to decide what you’re going to do with them.
Grab the Idea Doc here. It's free, and I hope it helps you create and innovate your way into your juiciest and most wonderful work and life.
Connect with me
https://Instagram.com/IzoldaT
https://www.linkedin.com/in/izoldat/
https://twitter.com/IzoldaT
 
8-16-21 Idea Doc
[00:00:00] Izolda Trakhtenberg: I don't want to forget ideas and I get stressed that I might forget them. So to alleviate the stress, I need a place to jot them down.
[00:00:12] Hi, and welcome to the innovative mindset podcast. I'm your host. Izolda Trakhtenberg on the show. You get my conversations with peak-performing thought leaders, creatives, and entrepreneurs. We explore how you can innovate through creativity, compassion, and collaboration. I believe that innovation combined with compassion and creative thinking can save the world and I aim to bring you ways.
[00:00:35] You can do it too. If you're enjoying the show, I'd be super grateful. If you can support it by buying me a cup of coffee, you can buy me a cup of@buymeacoffee.com slash Izolda tea. And now let's get on with the show.
[00:00:56] Hey there and welcome to the innovative mindset podcast. [00:01:00] I'm your host Izolda Trakhtenberg and I'm super happy that you're here, that you've taken the time to spend a little part of your day with me. I have just celebrated. 400 episodes. This is a few more than 400 right now, and I'm still incredibly excited to be talking about innovation and creativity and how we can use both to change the world.
[00:01:21] One of the things that's been happening is, and one of the things that I find most gratifying, I'll be honest is when someone takes the time to leave a review. And I decided that I want to thank publicly the people who leave a show review. And this week it's from Joseph E. Bennett. Here's what Joseph had to say.
[00:01:44] This is so damned inspiring. I just love this podcast. There's so much wisdom in what you is older and your guests bring forth and share so openly with us. Thank you much Lee, for all of it. And what an incredible accomplishment that you've just released. The 400th. [00:02:00] You're such a gift to all your listeners.
[00:02:02] Joseph, thank you so much for that wonderful review. I really appreciate it. And I am so grateful to you that you listen. To the guests who come on the show and talk and give their wisdom. So generously, I'm very happy, very thrilled, and very excited that I get to keep doing this. And I'm going to keep doing it.
[00:02:20] As long as podcasts are around. Speaking of keeping the podcast around this episode is brought to you by brain FM. Or rather than brain.fm. If you go to the website, this is an app that I have been talking about a lot. Actually. I love it. I use it every day. This app combines music and neuroscience, two of my little bits of catnip there to help me focus, meditate.
[00:02:47] And even sleep. And what's really cool is that they just recently got a, an NSF national science foundation grant to study how brain FM can be used to help patients in hospitals and other [00:03:00] places where this neuroscience that really works with your brain's own super power. To 10 X, your ability to, as I said, meditate or focus, do creative things, sleep, whatever it is you're trying to do, brain FM will likely be able to help you.
[00:03:16] I think anyway, if you listen to the show and you do, because you're here, you can get a free trial by going to. Brain.fm/innovative mindset, all one word. And if you love it as much as I do, and you decide you want to get it for yourself, you can get a 20% off with this exclusive coupon code. And that is innovative mindset.
[00:03:39] Again, all one word. And if you want to know more about brain FM straight from the source. The company's CEO, Dan Clark is next week's guest on the show. In fact, that's how I found out about brain FM is they asked if, uh, if Dan could come on the show and talk about it. And I was so fascinated by what he was saying and, and, and what [00:04:00] the app does that I have become an evangelist for it.
[00:04:02] I love, love, love it. And if you want to learn more about it next week, Dan Clark will be on the show. Alrighty. So now let's talk about this. Week's thoughts about ideas. If you're anything like I am, your mind is always going and your brain is always firing and tons of thoughts are coming at you every second of every day, I think.
[00:04:26] And you've heard me say this on the show before we're hyper-stimulated we've got so much stuff coming at us. Right. All the time, everything from advertisements to your child who needs you to, uh, feed or change them, right. Everything a to Z it's coming at you all the time. And that can be a cool, because.
[00:04:50] There are lots of opportunities for inspiration, for example, right? If there are lots of stimuli, then, then you can get inspired by some of them, but it can also be frustrating because the second something [00:05:00] inspires you, something else comes in to take its place. And last for me, anyway, it can be daunting because the second you've got a new thought or idea, it can fly right out as fast as it came in.
[00:05:11] Because again, something else came in it's just gone and that sort of begs the question. Why keep all these ideas, right? What's in it for you to keep track of all those ideas from the hyperstimulation, from your own thoughts, from journaling, whatever it is that you're doing, you get these ideas. What's in it for you to keep them.
[00:05:34] So here are my thoughts about that. And I have a list. One, it can clarify your stance on things like what your perspective is, what your point of view is too. It can give you more fodder for what you're already working on. Right? You can get new perspectives, new ways of doing things, new solution. Things like that three, it can give you clarity.
[00:05:56] You can get perspective on things that are, that have been in a sort of a gray [00:06:00] area. And what you need is clarity. You need to clear, clear things up in your own mind, those new ideas that you might get, those things that you might ponder. They're they're helpful for that for they can help you innovate, make changes, gain, focus, and even not do a thing.
[00:06:16] If that's what you decide, right. By getting more information by letting your mind wander and by letting those ideas bubble up. But that's the thing, because you have your ideas in one place, you do get to decide. What you're going to do with them. And that brings me to not forgetting ideas, right? I don't want to forget ideas and I get stressed that I might forget them.
[00:06:39] So to alleviate the stress, I need a place to jot them down and I don't want it to be on paper, frankly, because I Lu I'm a notorious paper loser. I will lose a small piece of paper faster than you can blink. I don't want to do that, but I also don't need an app specifically for this, because there are plenty of those.
[00:06:58] Right. But they, but they all [00:07:00] seem to have these huge processes. Right. For, for, you know, in order to do that, that you have to tap here and you have to click there and you have to do the hokey pokey. So I wanted something for fast ideas and I don't need a big lengthy step-by-step I just need a place to jot them.
[00:07:17] So it might be for me. And this is something to think about, you know, what, what new ideas do you have? Uh, for me it might be a new idea for a new product or a project or a book or a song or whatever my brain cooks up. Right. Sometimes I wake up in the middle of the night and I'm like, ah, I have to remember this.
[00:07:35] And there are there again. One of the things that's really good as you can keep a journal by your bed or an open by your bed. And that's really great. But then you can't search it. And that's something I want to talk about in a minute. So. This idea that you might have might be grand, it might be world changing, or it might be a new thought that you want to put up on Instagram stories or a new guests.
[00:07:58] That for me, that I might want to have on the [00:08:00] show, right. It might be something I want to ponder that came to me during my journaling or meditation, or while I'm riding the subway. Be reading a book and I want a quick place to shot, jot down a realization or an aha moment. Those happened to me all the time.
[00:08:13] And again, writing the notes in the margins of the book is really cool, except for you're messing with the book, but also how do you search. Right. If you write a note in the margin of the book, you're going to have to go back and dog ear the page. Oh, I dog-eared page 2 29 and now I want to find it again.
[00:08:31] That becomes a little problematic. If all you need to do is go back real quickly and in a snap, you know, get what you need to get. So I might need. A space to do those ideas, or I might even need a spot to note down that tonight is recycling night or that I have to remember to give my cat his meds. Cause Zephyr kitten looks like he might be on meds for the rest of his life.
[00:08:55] Cause he doesn't make tears. It's very, the vet is a little confused about how that's [00:09:00] happening, but anyway, It, even if it's not a crucial project deadline, though, it could be, if it's a quick thing to note and remember, I want to have somewhere where I can keep things and search them and figure all that stuff out.
[00:09:12] So whatever it is, I need a place and a way to categorize them quickly because otherwise it's a time suck or a time waste. And I don't got time for that. Right. So again, there are apps like to do whist or clear or Asana or click up or Trello, and they're all good. But many with the possible exception of clear there, they're really complicated.
[00:09:37] And all I want to do is jot something down and keep track of a new idea. That becomes again, more of a time suck than I want. When all I want to do is just get in there, write it down, get out. So I rolled up my sleeves and I made one for myself. And I'm going to share it with you. Let me tell you about the world changers idea document.
[00:09:59] [00:10:00] That's what I decided to call it because Doug on it, I believe we can each change the world in our own little way. All it is. Is, and I shouldn't say all it is because it was kind of, it was cool to come up with what I thought I needed. It's super simple, super easy, super easy to access. As long as you have a Google account and let's face it, many of us do.
[00:10:21] So it's a Google sheet where you can place all the ideas. The ponderings the little to do things that bubble up for you during the day, you can access this. Document from the show notesPage@httpscolonslashslashisoldat.com slash idea document. And basically this document is around for you. So you won't lose your ideas ever.
[00:10:50] You'll always have a clean, easy to use searchable space where all your best ideas go to be picked up and run with when you're ready. Right. It's not a [00:11:00] document. Keep for me personally, as older it's, it's something that I'm given out to you for free, just so that you can keep track of all your ideas so that, that therefore you, when you're ready for them.
[00:11:15] And basically I never want to lose another idea again. So here's how to use it first, go grab the idea doc, and you'll notice that it's read only, and that way you get your very own copy and no one else who downloads the idea document can enter data on your copy and vice versa. That's why it's personal.
[00:11:34] It's private, it's all yours. And it's just my gift to you. And here's how to get yours. Once you're at the read only document. File and then select, make a copy and then Google sheets we'll make one for you and then rename it to whatever you want it to be. I like world changers idea document just because I'm out to change the world, but you want to be sure that the folder says my drive.
[00:11:58] Cause it's your drive then that you're [00:12:00] saving to not mine, not as old as, and rename it to whatever you want. You should just be able to use it. And the columns in it are simple. And actually, if you go to the show notes page, there's a, there's an image that shows you all that they are, they're not hard, but they're really useful, right?
[00:12:17] So the columns are simple. The first one on the left is date. That's the date. You got the idea or the thing that you want her to do, or the thing that you wanted to think about all you have to do on one line of the idea document is click the cell in that date column, and a date selector will pop up and you can just note that.
[00:12:35] Choose that date. And then you move on. Or the next column is what did you think up? That's literally what it's called. Here's where you enter the idea, the, to do item or the philosophical pondering about the nature of the universe that you want to think about, whatever it is that you want to write in that, that slot do that.
[00:12:53] The next column will help you categorize the three types that I wanted to keep track of. And [00:13:00] again, this is designed to be super simple and easy. It's not something that's got a lot of different ways of doing it. It's really simple. The idea type column has these three possible choices. There's a Delta for idea type.
[00:13:14] Um, there's an infinity symbol for ponder this and an asterisk for do this. And you just choose one. So if, if you got an idea for a new project or an, uh, a new product, or if you're a writer for a new book, you would put her, you would select Delta for idea, because it's being in motion, the infinity symbol, if you're like, oh, I've always wondered.
[00:13:36] How much lefties can use the right hand, but don't or how much righties can use their left hand, but don't because society tells us we shouldn't use our left hand still to this day. Unfortunately, I'm a lefty and there are still, uh, not as many accessible lefty oriented products out there that should change anything.
[00:13:57] So then the last [00:14:00] one is a to do, right. It's really simple. It's like, oh, I have to remember to do this. So do it. And one of the things that you'll notice is that each category is color-coded so you can easily see whether or not you're, uh, these are ideas mostly or separate them out. The ideas are the to-do items or the ponderings, whatever it is personally.
[00:14:22] I love, I love stats. I love figuring out that kind of thing, but also you can sort them and see all the ideas in one place or all the to-do items and, you know, in, in a row, if you will. And I like seeing all my ideas together because they often flow one into the. And I like seeing all my to-do items together, because then I know how to approach them and which ones I need to approach first, but you don't necessarily think of them that way.
[00:14:47] So this is a nice way to keep them all in one place. That's easy to access and then sort them out so that you can see everything the way you want to. And. Here's my invitation to you. Anytime you get an idea, [00:15:00] you head to your idea document and you note it down. So you'll never forget something important again, because how often they, they say, you know, oh, Dog on it.
[00:15:10] I'm just gonna remember this. I will, I will. And then it's gone. Right? And you don't want that. You want it to be something that is readily available to you the next time you want it. So I wanted to make something a little bit easier. I want her to make it easy to access. So I've added a shortcut to the doc on my iPhone.
[00:15:31] That way I can access it super quickly when ever I need it. So the way to do that is you go to your idea document in Google drive. Once you've, once you've copied it over, you tap the three dots or more and scroll down to copy link. You tap that, then go to the shortcuts app. That's on every idea. Tap the plus at the top, right.
[00:15:53] Then tap the three dots on the top. Right. And you'll see a screen that asks you for the short cuts name, but [00:16:00] first tap, add action, and then tap apps. That should be in the top left corner. I hate it when they don't, till they say tap this, but they don't tell you where it is. So you spend time looking, scroll down until you see safari, then tap safari, scroll down until you see open URL.
[00:16:16] Tap that then paste the link that you'd copied before from the Google, from the Google sheets, then tap next. You should now see a shortcut with a cursor to the left of a great out short cut name, name it idea, dog or ideas, and then tap, add to home screen and then tap. And a check mark should appear briefly on your screen that shows you that it happened, tap done, and then you can also select it to show in the share sheet or on your apple watch if you have one.
[00:16:45] So when you go back to your home screen, you should see your ideas doc there, and it'll be like purple or blue. And there are two sort of vertical diamond type things on, on the icon. And now you can access it easily. Anytime you [00:17:00] need to. I know that there's a, probably the same kind of thing for Android, but I'll be honest.
[00:17:05] I don't know how to do it. So if you happen to know how to add a shortcut to your home screen on an Android, do me a favor and let me know, and I'll add it to the show notes later. Here's the thing, once you've done all this, I recommend that you go through your idea doc, once a week to make sure there isn't anything that's fallen off your radar.
[00:17:23] And also to make sure that it doesn't get too cluttered with things you don't want or need to do anything with or about this is to help you keep track of the things going on inside. Keep the best lose the rest. Granted these tiny ideas might not end up being world changers, but I'll bet many innovators and entrepreneurs and creators have gotten ideas they've lost.
[00:17:44] Right? I'm sure you have to you. Oh, this is a great idea. I want to hold on and. And I know that some people say that you'll remember the really good ones. So the ones you forget probably weren't that great to begin with, but I don't agree. I think the ideas deserve to have their own moment in the sun. [00:18:00] You might put them down after you look at them a little bit more carefully, but you've got to give your imagination and creative impulse, the benefit of that, of the doubt, you know, give your subconscious.
[00:18:10] A chance to float those ideas by you. So you can take a look at them and if you give yourself and those ideas of benefit of the doubt, that is when you never know some brilliant thing that you were on a or wanted to do, or wanted to think up and create will be there. For you to make it blossom. And the idea document is really the perfect way to do it.
[00:18:34] It's simple. It's easy to use and it's all yours. If you have questions about how to do it or how to use it, drop me a line. You can find me DME at Izolda T on Instagram or Twitter. I'm at his old a T there. Those are probably the two best places. Also. I'm at Izolda T on LinkedIn. Feel free. This document is, is, is my gift to you.
[00:18:56] I want you to go ahead and enjoy using it. And [00:19:00] if you find the wait, you know what, this could be improved upon. You can improve upon it. But if you want to tell me, I would love to improve upon it too. It's what, it's the bare basics of what I thought. Would be useful, but if you have something else that's useful, I would love to hear about it.
[00:19:16] All right, cool. So that is my thoughts about noting down the creative impulses and the ideas that we have so that we don't lose them and never lose another idea again. I hope that you've enjoyed this wee little episode next week, as I said, is Dan Clark. Who's the CEO of brain FM. And, uh, really, I, I don't, I would never, uh, endorse something that I didn't use and love, and I both use and love.
[00:19:49] This app, I just it's, I've found that it has just put my productivity and my creativity into the stratosphere and [00:20:00] considering my hypothyroidism and that I get tired pretty easily. It's really nice to feel like. Yeah. I've got this. I can do all the things that I've been dreaming of doing, because my brain works so much more efficiently and so much more creatively.
[00:20:13] I just love that. And you know, it ties really nicely into this idea document because then all those creative things can go right into the idea document for me to get to when I need to. All right. If you're, if you enjoyed this episode, if you download the idea, doc, I would love to hear from you. And if you really love the show, Or even if you don't really love the show, just if you like the show, please go ahead and leave a review wherever you listen.
[00:20:42] I don't know how many actually, how many different platforms allow you to leave a review? I know that apple podcasts does. So if you want to leave a review, I would love to hear from you. Yeah. And, uh, and also what you think of the idea document, and if you start using brain FM and you want to [00:21:00] let me know about that too, I would love to hear about that too.
[00:21:03] So until next time, I just want to tell you that I'm grateful that you're listening and I hope that you've enjoyed the show and will continue to enjoy it for many years to come until next time. This is Izolda Trakhtenberg for the innovative mindset podcast, reminding you to listen, learn, laugh, love.
[00:21:23] Innovate a whole lot.
[00:21:30] Thanks so much for joining me today. I really appreciate you being here. Please subscribe to the podcast if you're new and if you like what you're hearing, please review it and rate it and let other people. And if you'd like to be a sponsor of the show, I'd love to meet you on patrion.com/innovative mindset.
[00:21:47] I also have lots of exclusive goodies to share just with the show supporters there today's episode was produced by Izolda Trakhtenberg in his copyright 2021 as. Please remember this is for educational [00:22:00] and entertainment purposes. Only past performance does not guarantee future results. Although we can always hope until next time, keep living in your innovative mindset.
 

Publishing Expert Angela Engel, Founder and CEO of the Collective Book Studio

Book Publishing Expert, Angela Engel On How She's Innovating That Industry To Help Authors Get Their Books Out Into The World
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Angela Engel is an entrepreneur and book publishing expert with over twenty years of experience in the publishing industry. After working for 20 years in the publishing industry and with major publishing companies including Chronicle Books, Ten Speed Press, Cameron + Company, Dwell Studio, and Moleskine, Angela is on a mission to disrupt the publishing industry by giving budding authors more agency and authority in the publishing process. As founder of The Collective Book Studio, she provides authors the support they need to get a book out into the world.
Founder and CEO of The Collective Book Studio, a partnership publisher working to pair authors’ vision with quality book production in the areas of lifestyle, gift, and children’s books.
Here's a recent Publisher's Weekly article about the studio and how it's disrupting the publishing industry.
Connect with Angela
Website: https://thecollectivebook.studio/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thecollectivebookstudio/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/angela-engel-48b3a81b/
Episode Transcript
Angela Engel
[00:00:00] Angela Engel: [00:00:00] They have to, if they want trade distribution, the willing for this feedback, be willing for the work, be willing to say, Hey, you know what? All of sales, all of marketing, all of editorial is looking at this and the title and the cover really have to have this element. In order for it to work in the market.
[00:00:25] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:00:25] Hello and welcome to the innovative mindset podcast. I'm your host Izolda Trakhtenberg on the show. I interview peak performing innovators in the creative social impact and earth conservation spaces or working to change the world. This episode is brought to you by brain FM brain FM combines the best of music and neuroscience to help you.
[00:00:43] Focus meditate and even sleep. I love it. And I've been using it to write, create and do some of my deepest work because you're a listener of the show. You can get a free trial head over to brain.fm/innovative mindset. To check it out. If you decide to subscribe, you can get 20% off with the [00:01:00] coupon code, innovative mindset, all one word.
[00:01:02] And now let's get to the show.
[00:01:09] Hey there and welcome to the innovative mindset podcast. My name is Izolda Trakhtenberg. I am super happy that you're here. I'm thrilled and honored. And so, so, so happy to welcome this week's guest. She, and I've just been chatting before we started recording. And I know this is going to be a super fun conversation.
[00:01:27] And you know what, Angela, I didn't ask you exactly how to say your last name. So I'm just going to try it. Angela Engel is an entrepreneur and book publisher expert with over 20 years of experience in the publishing industry. After working for 20 years in the publishing industry and with major publishing companies, including chronics.
[00:01:44] 10 speed, press Cameron and company dwell studio. And Moleskine, Angela's on a mission to disrupt the publishing industry by giving budding authors more agency and authority in the publishing process. And you know how close that is to my heart was six books to my name and three more in the pipeline as [00:02:00] founder of the.
[00:02:01] The book studio, she provides authors the support. They need to get a book out into the world. She's the founder and CEO of the collective book studio. And it's a partnership publisher working to pair author's vision with quality book production in the areas of lifestyle gift and children's books.
[00:02:16] Angela, I am so glad that you are here. Welcome.
[00:02:20] Angela Engel: [00:02:20] Thank you. I know you pronounce my name perfectly. 
[00:02:22] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:02:22] Yay. I was, I was a little concerned and I was like, I normally ask and completely, completely forgot because we were, so I was so excited to be talking to him. We were having such a great conversation that everything went out of my head.
[00:02:34] So first of all, Wow that you're doing this. We were just talking about the fact that there are authors so many authors like me, the DIY people who are self publishing, who've been crying for what you are offering your you're building a name for yourself and the studio in the collective book studio in publishing.
[00:02:57] And you're doing it in a way that's really in many [00:03:00] ways disrupting the industry yet. Again, I would love if you would talk a little bit about what you are trying to do, what is the mission of the collective book studio?
[00:03:11] Angela Engel: [00:03:11] That's a, that's a big question. I know, but, um, you know, I have, as you said, I've had a career of over 20 years in the space.
[00:03:20] I'm, you know what? I was a young, young thing, right out of college, a comparative lit and creative writing. I loved books. I mean, who does it? Right? Especially in the, in the journalism field and the creative writing field and the English major, all of our stuff. And we, you know, our dream is to work in publishing and I got my dream.
[00:03:40] I got really lucky. I was, you know, 20 what, one or two when I graduated and I drove down to San Francisco and I applied for this job at publishers group west, which is now bought by Ingram. We all know who Ingram is. It's a huge. Mega, um, whole wholesaler and obviously self publishing knows a lot about Ingram.
[00:04:00] [00:04:00] And, and, um, I got my first job there and in that was like this champion of independent presses and small presses. And I actually had a great job. Great boss. Her name was trig McCloud and she came from Broadway books in New York. She had been Cindy Crawford's publicist, and I think she saw in me, honestly, that's he young?
[00:04:21] That I could do what I wanted to do, but she sort of was like, I'm going to sort of mentor you and let you ride the wave. And I got to ride two campaigns with her. One was the four agreements, which was, as we all know, a New York times bestseller and continues to be an incredible book. Um, and then the other one was when nine 11 hit was Noam Chomsky's book by seven stories and watching, watching her champion, these small independent presses become New York times bestseller.
[00:04:51] Um, was just magical, right? Cause, cause you brought in your editorial, your publisher, the writer, like all of, and then distribution and all the [00:05:00] ways to make this successful and honestly compete with the big five publishing houses. And then, um, at that same time, there's something called Amazon. Oh yes. And, uh, they were really just a book retailer, right?
[00:05:15] Like it was like Amazon and Walden pond in the mall. Right? Like, like where did you go buy books? Right. Barnes and noble was like the big, big thing borders. And there was like some Walden bonds. And there was Amazon that was like starting to be a book retailer. Right. And at that same time, it was also like, Hmm, maybe urban Outfitters or anthropology or pirates should start selling books.
[00:05:40] And I started just this sort of, uh, career path with, even in the publishing space, carving out for myself, becoming a specialist. And how do we sell books outside of the book trade. Right. And partly how you do that is packaging is the, is, is the way the book looks. Cause you don't, [00:06:00] you have to remember.
[00:06:01] You're writing for someone else, right? In many ways you have to understand your audience and your audience and your end, the buyer. Sometimes the person who buys the book is completely different than your audience. And so understanding that package is really key. Um, so my mission was let's jump ahead.
[00:06:22] Three years ago when I had been back, you know, I have, you know, my career was interesting partly because, you know, I'm a mom of three girls and you know, how are we going to, I'm pregnant with my third baby and I'm at a big trade show. And I'm like, God, I can't keep like, pumping like this. And I got two kids at home.
[00:06:40] So, you know, I S I, I quit and I stopped consulting. And in this time of consulting, There was this boom of self publishing. And, um, and I understood, I understood why people were going that route, but I saw also an issue when it came to understanding the full, [00:07:00] um, reason for traditional publishing is so sacred.
[00:07:04] One being, um, the craft as the book, the topography, the editorial, you know, everything, the illustrations and, and then also the distribution. So I wanted to find a company that could offer something completely different than Amazon can ever offer, which is people ask me this all the time. Do I have to sign an NDA?
[00:07:26] I'm like, there's no NDA to sign it's people. Like, how do you can, I mean, you could, you can't really recreate Angela or Dean Burrell or Elizabeth Saki, like any of my staff. So you get to work with people who have been experts in this field for decades. Yeah. So that's sort of the mission is how did, how did like people, you know, I would welcome agent at work and we use agents for illustrators it's not necessary right these days.
[00:07:57] And so how can we make [00:08:00] sure that people are being, having access to publishing and not having to wait three to four years to get on a list or develop a huge, huge pro. Profile and, you know, Instagram following and all the other hurdles that are, that are, that are existing. Now, my model is different, right?
[00:08:19] And people do have to invest in their work. Our royalties are also much higher, so it's just a give and take why I call it partnership publishing.
[00:08:31] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:08:31] I'm taking all of that in for a second. That was a lot, uh, I asked a big question. You gave a big answer. So here, here's the thing I love. I love the notion of partnership publishing and w w I, I hear what the collective book studio brings to the table. How much pushback do you get from the more traditional ways of publishing?
[00:08:58] Like the big five. [00:09:00] What, what, what kind of reception or are you getting from the more traditional spaces?
[00:09:07] Angela Engel: [00:09:07] Oh, They had just like cheered on my colleagues are awesome. I mean, they, like, we just signed Fran Hauser, incredible, incredible, uh, woman. Um, and she had a New York times bestseller myth of the nice girl.
[00:09:25] It was just an, I just, my big win this week was there was an article in publishers, weekly in our trade magazine, in the print and digital. That, uh, the clinic of Brooke studio is trying a new approach and we were the keynote breakfast speaker, Pamela and Rocco, uh, for Columbia, which isn't an institution, right?
[00:09:44] It's the California Alliance of booksellers. We were the keynote at their breakfast, her and Topeka up. And why is because I'm saying to the world, Hey, I'm not I'm, I'm just saying let's [00:10:00] figure out. How Amazon could not control. The distribution piece, because when you're self publishing, you're really kind of also, although you own your IP and you have all this control, you're actually giving many of it over to Amazon.
[00:10:17] Right? If you think about it, because you know, there's definitely ways bookstores can sell you when you go through Ingram and income spark that said you don't have a massive team behind you selling your book into what I mean, you're in Brooklyn. So. Books are magic. Amazing. Right? The and amazing green apples.
[00:10:38] So I'm such a huge champion. I think that goes back to by activism. Right. We kind of talked to them. I am such an activist that I'm like, I am not going to leave my small booksellers behind. Right. Like I personally only buy my books on bookshop.org. That's what I that's my purse. Now. I can't say we can't say [00:11:00] that to everybody, but for me, I believe that the small acts we choose to do change.
[00:11:06] The trajectory of our lives because we're, we're teaching our community, we're teaching our kids. So for me, I just decided, oh, what is my small act? I sometimes can't run into every small little bookstore and busy with my three kids, but I can click a button and buy a, buy a book on bookshop.org.
[00:11:26] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:11:26] I love that so much.
[00:11:27] That makes me, so I know seriously, it's like, yay. Good, good for you. And, and I think that, that, that, that notion of small acts adding up to big changes is so it's key in, in, in many ways, in, in the ways so many authors have to do things. And it seems like it's key to the way the collective book studio is doing it.
[00:11:48] And you're disrupting you're you're, you're a disruptor. Because you're providing more pathways for authors to get published. And, and yet like, as a, as a self-published author [00:12:00] myself, one of the things that has happened when I've tried to do it is stores and, and, you know, first of all, getting into libraries is very challenging.
[00:12:09] The ALA is like, yeah, I don't think so. Uh, but, but at the same time, they often don't want to talk to you unless you have some sort of a company behind you. How does, how does the collective book studio. Maneuver in, in that space, like, because you have distribution, the smaller stores out there, more independent booksellers are willing to talk to you, or is there some other pathway that you can follow that just a single person might not be able.
[00:12:39] Angela Engel: [00:12:39] Um, no we have full distribution is you've got you have to. So we're we partnered with, um, independent publishers group out of Chicago. They also own Chicago review press and triumph books to great companies. I personally am a huge fan of Chicago review, press. And I honestly, we started as a packager. I'm going to [00:13:00] backup like the collective book studio.
[00:13:01] What is a packager is we will create books and then we will sell them to other publishing houses, less that have distribution. It's very common in the industry or we'll do proprietary work. Like we're doing these beautiful big custom board books for Costco. So we're, we're we're, this is very common, actually like a lot of publishers, 20 to plus percent of their list is, uh, is buy-ins or PA or pack from packagers.
[00:13:31] Um, we also, we also create creative content. We have a whole series called the secrets thoughts of, and it's just us writing it. And it's like in cats and dogs, it's really cool. P w what I said in this article at PW is that we act actually very similar to a traditional house. When I, when I connected with Joe Matthews, I'm already saying, Hey, we are traditional publishing.
[00:13:55] We are, we have content to fuel our trade list. Um, that you're going to [00:14:00] get revenue on. And in addition, I'm going to bring incredible clients with me that we vet that we have, uh, that they have a lot of say, but ultimately they're coming to us. So like, it's not like, okay, I want this cover. And it's this crazy cover with a bunch of purple volcanoes, you know, you know what I'm saying?
[00:14:22] And like, we're like, okay, that will never work. Um, so they come to us with knowing it's in my contract that like, ultimately they have to, if they want trade distribution, be willing for this feedback, be willing for the work, be willing to say, Hey, you know what? All of sales, all of marketing, all of that, a trial is looking at this and the title and the cover really have to have this element in order for it to work the market.
[00:14:50] And, um, all my clients are. Grateful for that. They're not, they understand that from the start. That's why I also say our [00:15:00] clients choose us as much as we choose that. Because again, in a partnership, I think we talked about this before the podcast. You're kind of all about collaborative, creative collaboration, which I really love, love that you said that because that is sort of my mission.
[00:15:15] Is that in a partnership publishing. We have to agree and, and, and, and go together towards that end product. And I think that there are some people, um, who have been frustrated in the traditional space because they felt like, oh my God, I didn't even have any say. And then there's people, um, in the self-publishing base, like you say, you can't get into libraries where if you come through us, like I'm doing a TLA, a Texas library association, like big, huge getaway box, because I can't.
[00:15:47] Because I have Matt major distribution  and they have booth space at those shows. Don't forget. They have actually, and I pay into that. So my, my company is listed in [00:16:00] trade shows too. The librarians know that they could easily buy us. And that we're, we're, we're a publishing house
[00:16:07] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:16:07] accompany. And it's interesting because the what, what I kept, what I kept thinking to myself as, as I was listening to you talk was you're vetted.
[00:16:16] Like they know that you will give them quality. Books too, to put in their libraries or to, you know, when you distribute them or all of that. That's some, that's something that, that a lot of sort of self-published authors don't have. They don't have that, that space of someone already knows me unless you're, you know, I don't know Scott sealer or something before he signed with whoever it is he signed with when he was putting his stuff out, people and people knew that he, that his.
[00:16:43] We're good. And that they wanted them. Whereas for most authors, it doesn't seem like it's like that. So, so as I keep coming back to this word, disruptor, and you are, you are changing the industry because of this partnership model. I was wondering if you could talk a little [00:17:00] bit about what that actually means to you, what does being a disruptor mean?
[00:17:05] And what is, what are you disrupting? Exactly.
[00:17:10] Angela Engel: [00:17:10] Yeah. I mean, I'm going to go back to our friend house. Cause she said the best way better to publisher's weekly this week. Right? Then they quoted her, which is that sometimes it makes sense to go with traditional publishers who takes the financial risk and sometimes partnership publishing makes sense.
[00:17:30] Especially when it's time sensitive, I'm open to both models. Why, what does that mean to me when she said that? And I read that and what that means to me is that I think we need to be open to both models because there's something called owning your IP, right. That we're all that people are. Uh, uh, sort of upset about in this [00:18:00] traditional space where, Hey, if I go with a traditional publisher and I own all this IP and I got to sign over my rights, but I want to create characters for Netflix or whatever else your dream is to do with the, with it.
[00:18:12] Um, my model is disrupting the space because basically I'm licensing in some way for only, um, a certain amount of years, their IP. So you, so this is how we work. You create, we created. Fi and sometimes people don't want trade. Right. And it's just packaging. So we have definitely projects that are on our list that we just make books for for companies.
[00:18:36] And they got a beautiful book and we're done. Then there are about 60% of our clients who really would like to be seen in the strand and at the library association. And so they signed a distribution deal with the collective book studio as part of our imprint, but I don't own their IP. I don't own that for life.
[00:18:55] That is a huge, that's the disrupting piece, right? Is that I'm [00:19:00] actually saying to publishing houses, why are we so scared? Of saying of owning. For a lifetime. What is because Amazon has disrupted our industry. Let's be real. They have, people are going there way they want faster at eight. They don't want to have their IP owned.
[00:19:20] So let's listen to what they're asking for. This is like, it's almost like we talked about movements. Look, I think enough people have spoken to say, I want to have a book. I really want to have a book and no one's listening to that. So I'm going to just do it online. And Amazon was saw that need. And now they have not only been able to do it successfully.
[00:19:44] There are several, if not hundreds of cases, That are, that are hybrid services that offers certain kinds of editorial and great ways to make a really good book, which is important. You can get an editor and you can make a graphic designer through them, but they still don't [00:20:00] have the distribution piece.
[00:20:01] Right. And so they're able to Le they're able to sort of utilize Amazon's ability for, for, uh, for sale. And, uh, still create some quality production in some way, but they still don't have the ability those services, because ultimately they hand it over to you and your left, right. As an author to do it all, to still do all the marketing, to do still all the PR and ultimately to print on demand or to do some offset.
[00:20:34] Um, you're still left with that piece. And I sort of felt like, well, If I created an imprint at a trade imprint that people could, that was truly vetted. I could get the distribution because then librarians, booksellers. They trust what's on our list. Right. They know it's, it's been vetted through what I started this podcast with [00:21:00] really seasoned professionals for decades come from.
[00:21:04] Don't forget places like random house Harper. Uh, Harper Collins, Chronicle books. I mean, that's where the staff, my staff come.
[00:21:18] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:21:18] I keep having to take a second and take all of that in. We were chatting about earlier how this is just like having a cup of coffee together. So, so imagine that I'm taking a sip of my soy latte right now. Uh, so I love, I love, love, love that you're talking about the aspect of it, that, that, that you're giving this opportunity to people.
[00:21:42] To not be holding the entire bag because there's this notion of playing to your strengths. You know, my strengths perhaps are the writing. They may not be the marketing and the PR and all this other stuff. And I feel like there are there for, for so many professions. [00:22:00] To wear a kajillion hats. You know, I have to be my accountant.
[00:22:04] I have to be my marketing person, my PR person, my, this, my, that, my, the other. And sometimes I don't want to, sometimes I can't. And I'm talking about the general eye here. So, so you're offering. And you started it with the hope that you could write that, that I, that I think I can, that I'm going to partially because you have these seasoned professionals, but something in you seems like you're just, you're just like the eternal optimist, you know, like I'm going to be able to make this happen and go.
[00:22:32] So can you talk a little bit about that? Like how. Your as the, as the CEO of this company, how does your state of mind affect the process, affect your collaborations with the people on your staff and also your collaborations with the authors that you take on?
[00:22:48] Angela Engel: [00:22:48] Oh, I love this question. I mean, mindset is everything.
[00:22:52] It's everything. Um, what a great question. I mean, look, entrepreneurship is hard [00:23:00] when you asked me how do my colleagues feel in my traditional. I want to go back when I first started the company, because now of course they're applauding, of course I'm getting this. Like, you know, and even in the very beginning I had really, I, I, in confidence, like I called a friend of mine who was high up at random house and I called a friend at Simon and Schuster and I called a friend at Chronicle and all of them were really, really supportive, but they were also like, Angela, we cannot offer you distribution.
[00:23:28] Like you gotta go get like a million dollars in backlist sales. So. I had to say, okay, I, you know, it's not like I snapped my fingers. And I was like, cause when I first thought, okay, I'm going to snap my fingers and it's going to be pretty easy to get distribution with Ingram. No, and I'm an insider, right?
[00:23:48] It was not easy. There were a lot of notes. There are a lot of like, honestly, I'm going to say. But it's really true. And I, I'm going to say it cause I'm a woman in my forties. Who's [00:24:00] climbed really high into my career. I taught before I was even 30 and there are a lot it's specially in the sales old boys clubs, they are just are in, in the, in the industry.
[00:24:13] And it felt like I constantly was like, oh, that's, uh, that's, that's nice, but you're kind of young or you're kind of naive.  and then I'm in my forties. Right? And I'm like, wait a second. I have spent 20 years of my career and you're still treating me this way. I'm like, oh God. Now, so you know what I did? I just said, I'm just gonna, I'm just not going to listen anymore.
[00:24:38] I'm going to internally. I actually have said this so many times to myself, to my friends on a popular podcast. I am going to just have this mantra change starts with you. And if I have this mantra for myself every morning or what I'm feeling stuck, and I think change starts with [00:25:00] you, I can do anything.
[00:25:02] And so when you ask how I lead my team, It's I lead my team with that idea that like, okay, you're feeling frustrated or okay. A client is not doing right or, okay, this is not going on schedule. Oh, what can we change? What is it about you? What is it that we need to do? What is it that I need to do to move this forward on this project?
[00:25:26] And I think my team and my clients. The one thing is even when I'm stuck, I use that as an optimism piece because I know that in my own 20 plus years, there has been people who had, do have not believed in me. And I just have to let that go, you know, like it just, and, and when you do you surround yourself?
[00:25:52] Like, look, I'm here today on your podcast because I surround myself with people who do believe [00:26:00] in this power of lifting others up.
[00:26:04] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:26:04] I yeah, absolutely. Again. Oh, I'm going to take it in for a second. No, because, because there, we were talking a little bit earlier about my, my mantra, which is creativity, compassion, and collaboration, and that, it seems like I can almost go well, Angela, that seems like it's kind of your mantra to that.
[00:26:23] This notion that you're working in this very creative field. And you also have that analytical side too, that has to keep sort of the, the, all of the bowling pins in a row, if you will. But compassion is another word that I'm hearing from you, compassion for the authors, compassion for the process, compassion for the people on your staff.
[00:26:44] That it's, that it's very sort of purpose driven, but also heart centered. If you see what I mean, and I'm, I'm just wondering a little bit about what, what that. Means to you. What now, w what leading from that space means to you both, [00:27:00] if you don't, if you don't mind sharing both in the business world and also in your personal life, because in many ways as the CEO, you sort of have to figure all of that out.
[00:27:09] How are you going to divide the three girls that you have, you know, that you're a mom to your relationships, all of that. And how do you align that with the, the business that you're responsible for?
[00:27:22] Angela Engel: [00:27:22] You asked some really good questions, you know, while you were talking, I'm thinking of this, this woman, um, her name is Susan Reich and she was president of like Avalon, which was this really cool publishing house.
[00:27:36] They have like tons of imprints, one being seal, press one sources, great imprint. She ended up becoming president of, I believe publishers group west, which is part of Ingram. And. When I first, this is my biggest tip to any person find the really people who've all done it before you who've been able to, especially I [00:28:00] think women find a wa like I needed to find a woman in my life who had, who had already climbed such a ladder and had been in board rooms and was an exact, was such a boys' club.
[00:28:14] That I could like sit down with. So when I first started this business and they have to be in your industry, so she was in my industry, she like understood my industry and I asked her to coffee. I didn't talk to her for years. And she took my coffee. Right. It's so excited. Like I'm 20 I'm 40 plus. And I felt like I was 22 and gap.
[00:28:35] Right. She met me for coffee three years ago and she saw, she said to me, I love your idea. I think this is going to work. And it was like that moment for me. And I don't, I actually re emailed Susan, like about once I got like a lot of this once I got Fran Hauser and I told her, and we're going to re you know, it's been, we haven't seen each other with the [00:29:00] vaccines all now, rolling out.
[00:29:01] Like we're going to, once everyone's fully vaccinated, we'll make a time to go get coffee again. But why I said this is you're asking me. Wait, remind me what my question is. I got on a little tangent, but I know I'm stringing it together. Um, do you
[00:29:17] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:29:17] want me to remind you? Yes. Yes. So basically it's how do you align the compassionate heart-centered purpose-driven part of who you are with business and also your personal world and how you, how you figure all of
[00:29:32] Angela Engel: [00:29:32] that out.
[00:29:33] Okay. So this is my, my connection here. So Susan going out for that coffee, right? It's in some way, taking her time, I'm not paying her whatever she's showing compassion. She's like, I remember this young 22 year old sitting at the Xerox machine working hard for me. Right. Making sure my company succeeded, like really caring about my.
[00:30:00] [00:29:59] And she now took that moment and had compassion when I said, I really need some advice. Right. And so I think that those things I lead with those things, cause I recognize. That those things about the human spirit, the human life, like what, when we show compassion to another human, right. When Susan's shows compassion to me, I, that it's almost like I'm a candle and it gets lit my combined fuel.
[00:30:30] And then I have time to just give it to somebody else. The issue is when we it's, we need to keep passing that on to people. How, how I do it is I fi I have my little group of people. And when I'm feeling a little, like, Ooh, my flames out, it got as high as I needed to be. I go to the people that I know I need to refuel me so that I can refuel both my staff, my clients, my business.
[00:30:57] And then in return [00:31:00] that that does create into my home life. Right? Like I, um, am not so good at RNR, to be honest. And either as my husband, he's a small business owner himself. He actually is a controller accountant for restaurants. So it is it's intense. I bet for my girls to have two small business owners in the time of COVID, but, um, my girls are alone.
[00:31:27] There, there are the biggest champions of me, like my girls, for example, when my oldest who now is about to turn 13, she knows her mom from 14 weeks old. I mean, she doesn't remember, but she remembers if you won, you know, as, as she got older that I was always traveling, I was on the road every other month.
[00:31:50] I mean, I mean every other, no twice a month, every other week, And, um, I was pumping, I mean, of course I was, I was selling to Costco. I was selling to target. I [00:32:00] was selling to buy, buy baby. I was selling to babies, RS at toys R us when that account existed. And so mom wasn't there in that same physical way.
[00:32:08] So what I was Quinn was my kind of corporate lifestyle. She was already like eight or nine years old. Right. And I'm having a baby. My, my, my, my youngest and my oldest are eight years apart. There was a mom and I had a meltdown. I mean, this isn't about compassion and I just lost it. We were in the car and I was crying being out of the nine-year-old and I have a toddler and they want stuff.
[00:32:37] They want to stop at the gap or something annoying. And I said, I turned around and the biggest cry I'd probably have to nurse. And my boobs are probably huge. And I just, I didn't have, for the first time in my life, I didn't have this like big. Job to like our nanny to pick them up or something. And I said, I turned around and I'm like, your dad makes all the money.
[00:32:59] Why don't [00:33:00] you go ask him to take you? And, um, my oldest looks at me and she's like nine years old and she's like, mom, you can make money too. Oh yeah. And that compassion, that moment, that compassion, that realization. Oh, my God. I beat myself up. I've had mom guilt that I haven't, you know, wasn't able to go to her kindergarten, this or that.
[00:33:27] My daughter actually sees me so differently that that's what motivated me to find the collective book studio. That's what motivates me every day. That kind of fueled that she was like, mom, you're a bad-ass.
[00:33:44] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:33:44] Oh, that's amazing. I love that. And it's so it's so telling that sometimes we just can't see ourselves as well as the people who love us can see us.
[00:33:55] There's there's a real powerful lesson right there. Wow. Incredible, [00:34:00] incredible. Thank you for sharing that, that, that's amazing that, that, and that you were aware enough. To take the lesson from that, you know, there are people out there probably would have gone. Yeah. Whatever, but you actually stopped and you actually took it in and that's, that's amazing.
[00:34:13] Good for you. Wow. Oh, thank
[00:34:16] Angela Engel: [00:34:16] you. You're the first to actually please set up that way. I, I appreciate that. I really do feel because I did ed take it in and I guess that's a tip. If people are listening, like take them smile. Moments in because you know what I realized my anger or what I said to my children.
[00:34:37] That's not okay like that. Wasn't about my husband, like, you know, a partnership just like in my business, but in my marriage and in my relationship, which we've been together 15 years. Oh 16. It is a give and take, right? Like there are moments. Work work, got a share in the work. And so, and that's really what my daughter, who [00:35:00] I am.
[00:35:01] She, I got to tell you these 13 year olds who could be an eighth grade next year, they're about when they taught. I don't know. I just want to say like, the way that they're intelligent about gender is just incredible. And I think in that moment, my daughter was really able to say, whoa, bomb, check yourself.
[00:35:21] And she was only like nine years old.
[00:35:24] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:35:24] And she said it an old in the way a nine-year-old would write she, and she'd write to the point. I love that. I love I'm so glad that you're raising such aware kids. Good for you. No, because, because honestly, I spent 20 years working. I worked at NASA for over 20 years and I was teaching, I was traveling and teaching kids how to save the planet.
[00:35:44] That was my job. It was awesome. And, and, and you see, seven-year-olds teach. College professors because the college professors think they know everything, but the seven year old is the one who actually does it's really quite it's quite something. They were able to do it. They were able [00:36:00] to, to, to teach them these valuable, valuable lessons.
[00:36:03] And that brings me to a question that I would love. Yeah. Chat with you about, um, this notion of teaching others of, of showing compassion and also just being giving back, I guess, you know, what, what is your thought on that? Because I know that your business and you personally, you're a philanthropist, right?
[00:36:27] So. Role does giving back, does philanthropy play in, in your business model and also for you as the CEO of that business?
[00:36:38] Angela Engel: [00:36:38] Okay. Yeah. Um, well, I, again, I mean, I think that if we wait around always to say, okay, um, who else was going to do this? Or I don't like it this way, or we have that kind of mindset. It nothing will change.
[00:36:54] Right. It's like, so I, um, In the ho in the [00:37:00] start of the pandemic about, you know, now a little over a year ago, um, one of my closest friends was an ER ICU doc here in Oakland. And we all know there wasn't enough PP, um, E there was not enough medical face shields, uh, for, for our frontline workers. And instead of being sort of thinking about, well, gosh, you know, What am I going to do?
[00:37:27] What can I do on a publisher house? I thought, you know what? I couldn't link up with one of my friends. Who's a small business owner, herself. Who's out of work a fabricator, and we're going to, because we're a business, we're going to be able to wire money over to DuPont and make medical face shields. And people would be like, what is a publishing house?
[00:37:49] Why is she doing this? Right. So why my, why is that? My best friend was working nonstop in the, in the ER [00:38:00] ICU, ER, my home. Is very, very close to Highland hospital, which is, um, account, uh, you know, it's from the county hospital as a public hospital, which is a lot, so there's a lot of low income and, um, round and brown and black people and people of color and color and low income.
[00:38:20] And it's literally down the street from me. There's. And I'm, uh, I'm an Oakland business. And so I felt it was my duty, my right, even though I might manufacture books as a community. Paying taxes and being part of Oakland and this hospital and my, my friend wasn't at that hospital was at a different one, but then I, I really, um, sort of networked myself to San Francisco labor and, and said, Hey, what do we need?
[00:38:49] And the clinics around here from Santa Clara county low-income clinics to the Navajo nation, because it grew right. We're not just our new Keeler, small bids. [00:39:00] And our little area, you start small in your community. I guess that's my biggest advice. If you don't know where to start, start in your community and it will grow.
[00:39:07] Like all of a sudden I was getting pinged by friends who had connections to the Navajo Navajo nation. And if you allow yourself to say, okay, I'm going to give myself this little time to be an activist in this particular school. And you open yourself up and you fought, like we're saying, we collaborate with other people who you can network with.
[00:39:27] I ended up giving money over to a nonprofit to really maintain all of it because I have to go back to my real business. Right. But my work is not over in that moment. That's one side. So what's my next project. Like I'm working now on a book that, where we did a big, I fund women campaign and our goal is to.
[00:39:48] And, and, and sell thousands and thousands and thousands of copies of this little tiny book, which is called eat cake for breakfast, which who doesn't want to eat cake for breakfast. And it's the, and it's [00:40:00] written by this incredible full, uh, entrepreneur and philanthropist, um, violas, um, soon Tonto. And she wants to be able to give back to UCS AF Oakland children's hospital.
[00:40:12] And we connected, um, during the pandemic. We, we went on a walk and she, her daughter had a rare, um, a rare bone, um, bone condition, and she needed to get treatment at UCF and she wanted to be able to give back to this hospital. And so I said, well, I'm already manufacturing books. I already have staff. I already have people.
[00:40:39] Um, and, and the mass distribution, if you want to run an I fund women campaign so that we have money to manufacture this book, I'm happy to provide, you know, my marketing team or PR team and, uh, and an operational team to get this book into the room. And [00:41:00] that's what I also would say. If you are a small business and you want to give back, sometimes you are able to just because you have a certain capability in manufacturing, if you think about all the places where they made masks to donate or other things.
[00:41:14] It's finding those things. I also know that giving back it can be so easy. What did I say? I just buy my books now from bookshop.org. They've raised over $12 million to independent bookstores across the patient. Like that's also activism. If you just think about what your business or who you are, can do and give back.
[00:41:37] I mean, for me, When, when black lives matter really was at the forefront of everybody, it was a fight. It was my duty for my kids to go out there into the streets to make signs, to see it. But it was also not enough. Like we ended up sending face shields to Minneapolis, to service, for example, children's Minnesota [00:42:00] hospital to help people during the riots.
[00:42:02] Like, I just think, you know, what is, what is my take back? Like I think that if my company. Uh, you know, there's only so you can, you can there's money, but you can never, ever buy time and you can never buy humans. And like, I guess that's just my that's part of my philosophy in life. Like I, you could have all the money in the world, but that does not give you back your people and your time.
[00:42:29] And that's what, that's what I want to see when I'm old and gray and maybe sitting on a beach. What I've been able to reflect who my, who I've touched. I mean, that means I have, that means the world to me. That's my personal thing. So my company, I mean, I, I do books. I do stories like I'm grateful every day, what I do, because I do think words changed Matt and words changed lives.
[00:42:58] They create.
[00:43:00] [00:43:00] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:43:00] For sure for sure they do. And I'm, you know, on behalf of authors everywhere, I'm so grateful that you are doing what you're doing. It's amazing. So I have, I have a. I got a
[00:43:12] Angela Engel: [00:43:12] little, um, I got really passionate there.
[00:43:14] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:43:14] I know. I love it.
[00:43:16] Angela Engel: [00:43:16] I love it. What did I just talk about?
[00:43:19] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:43:19] This is great. I think it's so important.
[00:43:21] No, because, because we are not just what we do for a living. Right. And if you can, and if you can, to be the most successful person is the person who does what they love. And, and then, and then there's a wonderful quote by, um, In the book, givens decline and fall by Sheri Tepper. And it, I it's my favorite quote.
[00:43:42] Like it's what I live by. And, and it it's a little bit of dialogue, but I have to tell it to you in case you've never read the book. Uh, it's about a woman who has since died, but she started a movement and somebody is talking about what she used to say, and this is the quote, find your sun warmed stone.
[00:43:58] She used to say to [00:44:00] us, go there, build your house there and then lift others up. I love that quote so much because that, that notion of, yeah, you can do it, you can start your business, you can write your book, you can, and once you've gotten to that point, help someone else, you know, and it sounds to be like that.
[00:44:18] Oh yeah.
[00:44:20] Angela Engel: [00:44:20] Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, God. I'm doing a party dance over here in my chair. Like I love that quote. I know, that's
[00:44:30] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:44:30] it. Once you've done it, pull others up. That's that's what we can do. We can help, we can help those coming after us. And so, so having said that. Brass tacks here, Angela, if somebody says, oh, I've got a book in me or I've written a book or whatever, and they want to find you, they want to, what are the steps to getting involved with collected collective book studios?
[00:44:52] What would you say someone should do when they want to do that? When they want to reach out when they want to follow you? When they want to say, Hey, could [00:45:00] we work together?
[00:45:01] Angela Engel: [00:45:01] Yeah, well, this would be my advice at any publishing house, whether it be mine or you were interested, you were a poet, you, I, and it was edgy.
[00:45:09] And I would maybe recommend go looking at soft skull press, like, look at what we already do. That is really key. So read, like, what is lifestyle? What is children's? What are gifts? Titles? We have a titles page who are we publishing? Um, follow our authors and follow us. I think that will give you a good sense.
[00:45:29] Do you think you're going to be a right fit for our last, um, I'm very education. I'm very into parenting and the career development. Um, I have a beautiful book coming out on labor and delivery, labor and delivery. Of course I am a mom of three, like, but how we even package this labor book is very gifty.
[00:45:48] Like my goal is, bye. Bye baby. Here, like looking into, um, really, so kind of look at our books and think about. Are we the right fit as if you're writing a novel, like that's not [00:46:00] what we do, right. So it's not, it's necessarily not, I'm not going to be able to really help you there, but it's a memoir. We also don't do.
[00:46:08] Now. I'm always willing to. Slide into my DMS, right. Which is at the collective book studio. And I'm happy to like give ideas on, uh, plates for a memoir or for a novel if I can, because I I'm very have been in the world for so long. So I have like 20 years and I might know a small, independent press that you're not thinking about.
[00:46:29] And I think that, so, so for us, I love food and wine. I love Diane. I love, uh, anything travel full visual. Children's like, think about how that book is going to be structured. And if it's not full visual, then it should really be in like the self-help career motivating, uh, parenting space. But we would, but not, but the business it's not hardcore business.
[00:46:56] Does that make sense? Some of that's not really my genre either. [00:47:00] It really is. We're really a trade house. We really trade publishing. We're not going to have. A big academic reach. And some people may prefer to go on it to an academic press, for example, like UC Berkeley or something like that. So I think it just, no, I think it's really about knowing what your why is and what your purpose is and what you're trying to achieve with your own book and then, and then approach us.
[00:47:24] And I'm always, you know, willing to take a look there's, there's no cost for an author for us to look at it. It's a submission
[00:47:31] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:47:31] process. Right. Absolutely. And, and I thank you for, for that. A lot of people don't know that very specific and very good advice that you just gave, look at the imprint, see what they're already doing and see if you would be a fit there before you even pitch them, which I think is so important.
[00:47:51] And. I, I have just a couple more questions because honestly, Angela, I could keep you here for the next six hours and we could just [00:48:00] keep chatting and order more coffee.
[00:48:02] Angela Engel: [00:48:02] Well, I do want to know more about your NASA days. I'm like, wow, that's a story. Can we come on? Aren't you going to write a children's book with me and we do need more women in stem for sure.
[00:48:12] Okay. Well,
[00:48:12] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:48:12] and that's exactly actually, that's what I did. I, it was environment earth, so. And, uh, my, my job was to go in and make dirt fun. That was,
[00:48:22] Angela Engel: [00:48:22] oh my God. Well, we could talk for really, I mean, obviously we need more women in stem, so I applied there and, um, and I know I'm going on. I'm not told tangent need to pick it up, but I'm very curious about it.
[00:48:38] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:48:38] Well, we'll have to have a virtual cup of coffee sometime. No, I mean, the thing about the thing about NASA and one of the. That what, what you do and what I do, where it intersects in some ways is because I was, I would go into places, either teaching kids or teaching scientists, how to speak to kids. A lot of it is they, they, they speak very eloquently, but [00:49:00] they speak at very high levels and eight year olds.
[00:49:03] You said what you know, or they check out. And so my job was to help scientists learn how to speak to eight year olds in a way that the eight year olds would find fun. And so then I took that and I wrote a book all about a called speak from within. So seed. Now I've put it all back into the publishing realm about how we can communicate in a way that will be really, really.
[00:49:24] Dave, particularly if we don't know how or if we're nervous about it. So, so when we're talking about that stuff, when we're talking about NASA or when we're talking about, you know, writing for kids, what, to me, what I'm talking about ultimately is communication. And so for you, with what you're trying to do with what you're already doing successfully, it seems like what are your goals?
[00:49:51] 2030 years from now. What do you want to see in the publishing industry? From collective book studio and also perhaps the industry [00:50:00] itself?
[00:50:01] Angela Engel: [00:50:01] Hmm, 20, 30 a year. Okay. So I'll be, what does that say? Over 70 and 30? Yeah. When you're,
[00:50:08] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:50:08] when you're like, when you're on the beach and you're going, I have done all of this really cool stuff.
[00:50:14] Angela Engel: [00:50:14] What are you thinking?
[00:50:19] Well, I want a New York times. I want a New York times bestseller. I don't want to see, I want to see a time where independent publishing women own pub presses are back on those bestseller lists. Like it's 89.9% big houses at this point. And the big houses just aren't getting huge speaker. I mean, they're just all buying each other up.
[00:50:41] They're buying. I guess, I, I guess I believe in the power of like community and words, I think I need my dream. I think I need to, some of the more famous writers that might not need the huge, huge advances and want to try something completely different. Like, I almost like need them in [00:51:00] partnership with me, but I think that's possible.
[00:51:02] I think that people. Um, can work with us in a way where you can't get still a traditional deal. And there are still some books that bull make sense for your traditional house. I think I want to disrupt that industry idea that like, you have to stay all the time in traditional house. And if you don't, you're going to get like blacklisted, right?
[00:51:23] Like. What or like I self published and I can't now get a publishing deal. What? That doesn't make sense. People like, let it go because of the end. Let it go. Because the media, like if you have something to stay in, you're a nonfiction author. They're going to, you have something to say and you deserve to say it.
[00:51:46] Like, I don't think in 30 years someone's going to go, oh God, I had a, I had a self published book and God, I could never get a true D like no, like stop all of that kind of competitive attitude. And instead [00:52:00] let's figure out how we're going to still maintain. Right. This is really cool. For me, the reason I am still very picky about the submissions is I do have concerns with self publishing, for sure.
[00:52:16] Um, there's things like, like blinders people have where you may put something that it could be offensive, racist, those types of things. And without a traditional guard, really looking at same with media, right? Like without traditional media really looking at it. There is room for hate speech. We saw that on Twitter.
[00:52:39] All over. Right. We've saw that, um, across the board and what that kind of insinuates in our culture and in our communities. So if traditional publishing, we need to change, we still need to be guarded for things like that. And that's why I think if I look 30 years ago, I raised on the beach. Maybe with you.
[00:53:00] [00:53:00] They're like having a beer. Champagne. And we're saying we're still, we're still saying to the country, like you can't have hate speech. You can't have to pictures of people in a certain light, right? Like that's what the Dr. Seuss enterprises did and shelves, six books and random house agreed with them. And like, there still needs to be that guy.
[00:53:21] But why also does, um, that guard have to control all of distribution? I have no idea why and all of people's IP. And so maybe I'm hoping, you know, whether that be Simon and Schuster, all my colleagues were like, oh, laughing. Cause we've kind of decided. We're going to change that mindset, that access that snobbery, that sometimes does exist in my industry.
[00:53:43] And I think the reason I'm talking to you today, or the reason sometimes I'm on clubhouses, that I want people to understand that there's people internally inside my industry that are, that are not so snappy that don't want to say, oh, only the elite have access to publishing. That's not, [00:54:00] that's not okay.
[00:54:02] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:54:02] Once again, I love that. You said that
[00:54:06] Angela Engel: [00:54:06] what's true, right? Like I, you don't have to be a celebrity to get, like, why are celebrities getting a cookbook and someone who's been a chef and going to culinary school and is a writer for, you know, even like top columnists in journals are not getting published.
[00:54:21] Like that's not.
[00:54:22] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:54:22] Okay. Well, and that's the thing is that you. With your company are offering the opportunity for people to do that. You know, I mean, that, that to me is sort of the key takeaway for me here is that it that's where you're disrupting, you know, that that's, that's where things are really changing and, and more power to you.
[00:54:43] I think that's. That's incredible. And again, I have like 45 more questions that maybe you'll come back and do a part two of this interview, uh, because, because I'm having such a wonderful time chatting with you, but I recognize you have a life to get back to. So I would love [00:55:00] it if you wouldn't mind, uh, giving just I put it in the show notes, but people learn differently.
[00:55:06] So. Where people can find the collective book studio as far as on Instagram or on LinkedIn, wherever you are and your website, so that I can also put it on the show notes. I would appreciate it very much.
[00:55:18] Angela Engel: [00:55:18] Thank you. So our website is the collective. Dot studio. Very easy. It's just the collective book.studio.
[00:55:28] And then on LinkedIn, you can just reach out to me, Angela angle, our companies on LinkedIn, as well as the collective books or, you know, so both places, but I, you know, feel free for people to DM me. I love LinkedIn. It's one of my favorite platforms. Um, we also are active on Instagram at the collective book studio.
[00:55:47] We don't have Twitter, you know, there's only so many things we manage, but we're so visual that, um, Instagram or LinkedIn as a personal or our website, I would love people to [00:56:00] subscribe to our newsletter. Um, we have a newsletter that's growing that goes out twice a month and it's really great. We have.
[00:56:06] This column called read with us, and we give all kinds of tips on what we're reading as a staff. And I don't believe that I have to only tote my books. I get, I really talk about the industry. We have, we have blogs that we write. So I just asked for people to build community with us and to engage with us.
[00:56:24] And, um, Yeah, that's part of the fun.
[00:56:27] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:56:27] Absolutely. And I can say as a subscriber to the newsletter, that it is a lot of fun and I've gotten some great reading recommendations out of it, so, yeah. Good. Thank you. So again, Angela, I'm super grateful to you for being here. Really? What a, what a joy to talk with you?
[00:56:43] I have just one last question and I ask it of everyone who comes on the show and it's a silly question, but I find. The question often yields some pretty poignant answers. And the question is this. If you had an airplane that could sky write [00:57:00] anything for the whole world to see, what would you say
[00:57:08] Angela Engel: [00:57:08] change starts with?
[00:57:10] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:57:10] Ah, your mantra. Yes. Yes. That's fabulous. Thank you so much, Angela. I appreciate it. It's great. It's a great, beautiful. I can see it in the sky.
[00:57:21] Angela Engel: [00:57:21] I've never been asked that question. Oh my God. If that actually happened. Oh, I would I'll remind house in Oakland. I would just be smiling. I am smiling ear to ear right now and looking out at my porch and my blue sky can imagine that.
[00:57:35] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:57:35] I know. Right. Thank you so much for that, that this has been a fabulous chat with Angela angle, who is. The CEO of the collective book studio, you are going to obviously need to follow her and the studio on Instagram and on LinkedIn. See what they're doing. See how they're disrupting the entire publishing industry.
[00:57:56] I am Izolda Trakhtenberg for the innovative mindset [00:58:00] podcast. If you're liking what you're hearing, please rate and review the show. I love it. I'd love to hear from you. I love your comments as you know, and if you're a writer, get in touch with me because I'm always, always thrilled to talk to other authors until next time.
[00:58:13] This is Izolda Trakhtenberg again, reminding you to listen, learn, laugh, and love a whole lot.
[00:58:25] Thanks so much for joining me today. I really appreciate you being here. Please subscribe to the podcast if you're new and if you like what you're hearing, please review it and rate it and let other people know. If you'd like to be a sponsor of the show. I'd love to meet you on patreon.com/innovative mindset.
[00:58:43] I also have lots of exclusive goodies to share just with the show supporters. Today's episode was produced by Izolda Trakhtenberg and his copyright 2021 as always. Please remember, this is for educational and entertainment purposes. Only past performance does not guarantee future [00:59:00] results, although we can always hope until next time, keep living in your innovative minds.
 
 

Transformational and Business Coach Star Hayward

Business Coach and Entrepreneur Star Hayward on How Women Can Reclaim Their Unique Gifts and Succeed
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Star Hayward is a Business Coach, Spiritual Mentor, and Transformation leader with over 20 years of combined experience. Her mission is to empower women-entrepreneurs to own their worth and their voice so they can achieve the freedom and fulfillment they desire in their business as confident, feminine leaders, through self-love mastery and heart-centered business strategies.
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Episode Transcript
Star Hayward 2
[00:00:00] Star Hayward: [00:00:00] When you feel that calling inside of you, it does not go away.
[00:00:10] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:00:10] Hello. Welcome to the innovative mindset podcast. I'm your host Izolda Trakhtenberg on the show. I interview peak performing innovators in the creative social impact and earth conservation spaces or working to change the world. This episode is brought to you by brain FM brain FM combines the best of music and neuroscience to help you.
[00:00:28] Focus meditate and even sleep. I love it and have been using it to write, create and do some of my deepest work because you're a listener of the show. You can get a free trial head over to brain.fm/innovative mindset. To check it out. If you decide to subscribe, you can get 20% off with the coupon code, innovative mindset, all one word.
[00:00:48] And now let's get to the show.
[00:00:54] Hey there and welcome to the innovative mindset podcast. My name is Izolda Trakhtenberg I'm your [00:01:00] host, and I am super thrilled that you're here. I'm also really honored and thrilled to have this week's guest on the show star Hayward. And first of all, I love that. Star Hayward is a business coach, spiritual mentor and transformation leader with over 20 years of combined experience is to empower women entrepreneurs to own their worth and voice so they can achieve the freedom and fulfillment.
[00:01:22] They desire in their business as confident feminine leaders through self love mastery, and heart-centered business strategies. You all know how close that is to my heart. So I'm thrilled to welcome star. Thank you so much for being here star. I'm so glad to be speaking with.
[00:01:37] Star Hayward: [00:01:37] Thank you so much as all that it is truly a pleasure to be here with you today.
[00:01:42] I've so look forward to this conversation. As I know it's going to be on a very high level and we're going to have a lot of fun and so welcome to all of the audience for being here and stick around. This is going to be great.
[00:01:56] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:01:56] I, I believe so, too. Thanks so much. Let's [00:02:00] let's get down to brass tacks. Okay.
[00:02:01] We were just chatting before we started recording about your philosophy. And I love this philosophy that you are working with something, all the divine feminine and the divine masculine to help specifically, it looks like women entrepreneurs own their leadership skills and really move into their strength and power.
[00:02:23] What can you talk about as far as what divine masculine and divine feminine mean? When. We're in we're we're both. We come from both man and woman as babies. Right. That's how babies are made. We all know that. So that means both man and woman is inside us. How does that relate to what you do and what is the divine feminine?
[00:02:43] Didn't divine, masculine. And how can you apply that to your leadership?
[00:02:49] Star Hayward: [00:02:49] Well, so this is such a powerful question and, and I believe that it will be best answered if I lay a little bit of context [00:03:00] behind divine, feminine and divine masculine, you see these together combine what we know as divine power and empowerment is.
[00:03:10] Very alive these days, does it? Not everyone talks about wanting to come into their power. And when we are talking about coming into our power, what this really means is that we are identifying. Action between our external, our, which is defined as our ego power and our internal power, which is our inner power, that inner strength that we are looking for to build from within.
[00:03:41] So when we are looking at what that power really means, and, and how do we harness that the distinction of the divine feminine and the divine masculine, which are both branches of defense. Divine power in and of itself. If you were to combine the two, you, [00:04:00] you are in your divine power. So again, as we look at what does inner power really mean?
[00:04:09] I am very impassioned by the, the learnings and the perspectives of how the feminine and masculine channels of energy run through us as human beings. And I'll explain more about that and what I mean. So as you, as you noted, we are both masculine and feminine, right? We are a combination. We have these qualities that run in and throughout us, because it's a part of the dual reality that we came in here as human beings to experience in, in the third dimension, as we are on planet earth.
[00:04:48] This is a very unique experience in that. Here we have duality. We have right and left. We have up and down. We have black and white. We have love and hate. [00:05:00] So as human beings, we define our experience. By way of this polarity seeing the polarity, right? So, so th it's this polarity that we have running through us that is expressing itself as the feminine and the masculine energies and how these show up are through our personality, our qualities, our behaviors, and really how it is that we navigate making choices and taking action in our lives.
[00:05:35] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:05:35] Wow. Okay. So there's so much to what you just said. We have, we have, uh, we have, we have these already, as you said, inside us. And then we have to develop them from within and yet we get a lot of messages. As far as what are stereotypically feminine traits, stereotypically masculine traits, the messages are there in all, in all marketing commercials, [00:06:00] advertising, you know, I remember those, those commercials from the seventies, you know, I can bring home the bacon, fry it up in a pan and she's a woman because I'm a woman.
[00:06:09] Right. So, so, so those are, that was a really bizarre, I think for me as a child to see, because I just felt like a person, I didn't feel like I was. Bound by a specific set of behaviors. So when you work with your clients, how do you work around some of their preconceived notions about some of these stereotypically masculine or stereotypically feminine traits?
[00:06:34] Star Hayward: [00:06:34] Yes, absolutely. So as women and what you were just speaking to, we know that we have been conditioned and curated to. Climb the ladder of success in society by, by very masculine parameters. And in order to meet these masculine parameters, often a woman finds [00:07:00] herself disconnected from her natural innate feminine qualities.
[00:07:07] And I'll explain a little bit more about what I mean by that. So if a woman is in the masculine. Uh, energy of, of creation and innovation and going after, you know, making things happen in her life. The, the masculine is a very motivated energy. It's very deriving energy. It's a generative, generative quality is a difficult word to say sometimes.
[00:07:35] Um, and, and the masculine energy is very much about acquiring, right? So for example, Men tend to be very good at sales because they, they have no fear behind asking for the sale because they're their eyes on the prize and that they will often, you know, a man in balance with his divine [00:08:00] masculine will.
[00:08:01] We'll close a sale by way of a respectful, you know, honorable in Integris conversation and, uh, collaboration, right? A math, a male that is out of balance in his divine masculine will use fear based tactics and even shame. To close a sale with a client or a customer. So this is a perfect example of where if a woman steps into that and she is taking on these masculine qualities that again, have her, uh, sacrificing or abandoning her emotional, intuitive sensitivity.
[00:08:46] Sensitivities in a very positive light, right? This is another conversation we could go into about emotional sensitivity for women. It's actually a very [00:09:00] natural, natural, innate quality that women have. That's very much needed in our world, but it has been asked to be set aside so that in our. Masculine and patriarchal dominant society.
[00:09:17] Um, for in, in order for women to really become successful and become visible, acknowledged, and even valued on the level that they, they know that they're worth and that they desire. It's, there's so much shrinking to fit. And again, I'm really sacrificing and compromising her emotional, um, and. Intuitive sensitivities in order to get there.
[00:09:44] What happens is, is this woman becomes very good at the masculine behaviors and in doing so, she often feels disconnected from her work. From her vision. She [00:10:00] feels burnt out. She will feel overwhelmed. She will feel inauthentic and. The result is losing luster and losing passion for what her vision is as a business owner in the first place.
[00:10:15] So, and then there is also, um, you know, again, going after building a business with that inaction motivated energy. Day after day after day after day, we'll burn really anyone out. So this is great for men and women to pay attention to that, to see where you can bring the feminine qualities. Magnetism attraction, ease, flow, intuition, abundance, connection, service, and tribe.
[00:10:49] When we really start to pay attention to how important those are, and then also. The ways in which we can bring those into [00:11:00] the fold, into business as you're bit you're, you're building a business and becoming a leader within yourself, then you're starting to leverage the masculine and the feminine in a way where it's coming into balance and you can see where, okay, I'm going to use, you know, my motivation here and I'm use my intuition here.
[00:11:27] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:11:27] That's fascinating. And it brings up a question for me that, uh, that might be a whole nother podcast episode. The thing that, that I'm con sort of curious about, and a little actually also concerned about is that what room is there for there to be a strong. Feminine, an active dynamic, motivated feminine.
[00:11:53] Is there such a room in the paradigm that you work in or is it just that, those, [00:12:00] those more active. Qualities are assigned masculine, uh, traits or, or assigned as masculine traits and the qualities of more sort of soft emotional intelligence, intuition, emotion, all of that are assigned more feminine, uh, delineation, I guess.
[00:12:19] What is, what is the role of a woman who goes, no, I don't believe this is masculine. It's more me being a strong, confident woman. And those are very feminine traits because I am a strong, confident woman. How does that align or reconcile with the way that you have broken things?
[00:12:40] Star Hayward: [00:12:40] That is such a great question.
[00:12:42] I love this. Um, yes. So I will start by explaining that each person has both the masculine and feminine energy channels running through them. I call them your inner king and your inner queen. Hmm. And so these channels run through each of us. [00:13:00] However, we each have our natural masculine, feminine ratio and there is no right or wrong whatsoever, but there could be a woman who feels very dominant in her masculine aspects and, um, and her feminine aspects, you know?
[00:13:18] Taking the backseat. Whereas another woman could feel very dominant in her feminine qualities and her masculine is really taking a back seat. Now, there again, there is no right or wrong either way. Uh, Where are your ratio falls? Like for example, you may be 70% feminine and 30% masculine, or you might be 60% feminine and 40% masculine as an example.
[00:13:46] Um, it really doesn't matter what your ratio turns out to be. I personally, actually, my ratio is 50 50, uh, remarkably enough. And there are many people who do have this, this balance of [00:14:00] the ratio. However, It goes deeper than that. And this is going to answer your question, I believe. So how will, you know, you are imbalance and either is really by being aware of and examining your behavior and your reaction or triggers to certain circumstances.
[00:14:23] In addition to how it is that you are. And what it is you're creating in your life. So if there are things that you are creating experiences that you're finding yourself in circumstances that are occurring, that feel out of alignment with you, that something is off something isn't fitting, right. It's not feeling right, and it's not truly what you want.
[00:14:50] This is a very good indication that something is out of place. And usually it's something that's out of balance within ourselves, [00:15:00] because everything we experience in life is truly an attraction and a creation from what we are broadcasting from within. So, yes, you're the answer to your question is yes, there is room for a very strong, powerful female to do, be large and in charge in her business.
[00:15:21] Yes. Absolutely. And there is room for that soft, empathetic, nurturing, feminine, uh, business owner to also be empowered. And large and in charge in their business in a different way, right. There's room for all of it. My work that I do is to help my clients identify what is standing out of balance. What is out of alignment and what is showing up.
[00:15:50] That's giving us information to bring that into balance. And often it has a lot to do. With healing that is, um, that [00:16:00] is needed from deep seated, you know, childhood wounds, where, where there, the individual has come out of childhood. Um, You know, not having all of their needs met, um, on a fundamental level in terms of being unconditionally loved by their mother and unconditionally championed by their father.
[00:16:26] I wrote an article about this recently, and I go into more specifics about that. Um, but yeah. Truly the imbalances of our inner king and our inner queen. You could call it our inner child, our inner girl, our inner boy really do root for him. The experiences we have when we are young and impressionable and we're, you know, we're learning from the environment that we're in.
[00:16:53] So it really depends on what we were given, what we weren't given. And as we come into adulthood, [00:17:00] This is where we start to see. And, you know, as we come into adulthood as business owners, as innovators, as creators, and we have these visions and we have these passions and we want to go after, you know, what it is that we want to create and the, you know, connecting with your purpose and, um, You know, being driven by a ripple effect, being driven by, you know, wanting to create change in the world, um, in a positive way, whatever that may be often.
[00:17:30] As a business owner, it's very common to come, you know, very up close and personal with your limitations, your limiting beliefs, um, your, whatever it is. That's holding you back as self minimizing self-sabotaging behaviors, um, and patterns that all root from those formidable years. So I'm really passionate about.
[00:17:58] Lifting up and [00:18:00] inspiring and, and giving women the tools to overcome and break through so that they can be that leader so that they can fulfill their vision. Because so often I find women pack it up and pack it in when the going gets tough because they don't have the support and they don't understand what's going on there.
[00:18:23] They're motivated and inspired and they're taking action to a certain point. And then it's like the brakes come on. And they're like, wait a second. I don't know if I can go any further. I think I'm going to go back to the job back to the nine to five and then their vision. To the wayside and it's, it's heartbreaking because we need leaders and we need change makers and we need positive change and humanity as a whole is ready, is ready to rise is ready to ascend.
[00:18:57] And it's time. This is the era for the [00:19:00] divine feminine for the feminine leader to step up and step in and really take this. You know, be the beacon and take the torch and, and like the way so that we can bring as a whole, our experienced from a very patriarchal society, not swinging the pendulum over into a matriarchal society, but so that we can come into balance.
[00:19:26] And even if the pendulum rocks and wobbles here and there, that ultimately we're living in a much more harmonious exists.
[00:19:37] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:19:37] That's so fascinating. And it's interesting that you mentioned the pendulum. If, if we look at a pendulum swing and we go from patriarchy, we can't immediately go to balance. That's not how a pendulum would work.
[00:19:49] Right. It would be the physics would necessitate that it would go pass that balance point over into say matriarchy in order to eventually even out into some sort of [00:20:00] balance. So with, within that, how do we. Uh, as, as people, as women, uh, who are interested in coming into balance, how do we navigate that? How do we navigate the setbacks?
[00:20:16] How do we navigate that pendulum swing in a way that we, it will eventually balance, even if it's not going to balance right away, or even if it, as you said, will
[00:20:24] Star Hayward: [00:20:24] wobble. Yes, absolutely. So it all starts with them. Right. So just like I was mentioning before, everything that we're experiencing outside of ourselves is a reflection of what we're creating inside of ourselves.
[00:20:41] So when we want to come into balance, when we want to yeah. Spotlight and lift women up so that they can take the stage and, you know, carve out space or for us to shine and for our qualities and our gifts and our value to really come [00:21:00] through so that we can bring balance into the world so that we can, um, Lean more into oneness and wholeness, um, together that all starts from within.
[00:21:15] And so I would say to that, uh, Zelda, that it begins with a desire, a burning desire for that woman to overcome whatever it is that's holding her back and then finding support. With that desire, opening up to receiving support, opening up to receiving the right information at the right time that she needs for the next step and, and a deep commitment.
[00:21:42] It really requires a commitment to what it is that she knows she wants and that she knows she deserves. And, and really holding, you know, holding the belief around that conviction. [00:22:00] Um, and then again, opening up and trusting and finding her way into, uh, calling in all of the support she needs. Because like I said, this is a, it's a transformational experience when we're talking about.
[00:22:18] You know, basically walking through the fire, you know, is, is how I call it walking through the fire and burning these aspects of the self down so that you can rise as a Phoenix once again. And you know, we've all been, if you've lived long enough, chances are you've walked through the fire a few times and you're going to walk through the fire again, it's an ongoing process, but there is a time.
[00:22:46] And, and a place where, where a person has, has, um, held back and played small enough and they're done. And that, that moment in time is, [00:23:00] is so crux. That moment in time is crucial. And it's at that moment, that that person, that woman has every reason to open up, to receive everything she needs to help her.
[00:23:15] You know, see her through to the other side so that she can become who she needs to be to be that empowered leader, um, and fulfill her soul's purpose.
[00:23:28] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:23:28] I'm taking it all in for a second. That was, uh, that was a lot of really fascinating information. And it feels to me a little bit like, like there's a leapfrog effect here.
[00:23:42] Like we. We have to get to that point. As someone who's decided to make these changes, you have to get to the point where you're, you know, you make the decision and then you're ready to, but for a long time, especially a woman who. As you said, if you live long enough, [00:24:00] you've probably gone through the fire, but you've also probably, you know, been passed over for promotions.
[00:24:06] You've also probably had sexism directed at you. You've all seen, you know, things have happened to just about all women in, in that way. So how do, how do we get to that point? Do you have any suggestions? And if you do, what are they. To building that awareness that you might want to change before we even get to the point where we're, I'm going to call star and get business coaching.
[00:24:28] How do you get to the point where you build the awareness that it might even be something you need?
[00:24:33] Star Hayward: [00:24:33] It begins by understanding that in our life, you know, back to this polarity, this dual reality that we're living in. We, we are being shown what it is that we want and what we don't want on a daily basis by way of our emotional, mental, um, and nervous system, you know, [00:25:00] our by way of our physiology, you know what?
[00:25:03] We like lights us up and it feels good. What we don't like. Doesn't feel good. Right. So, so it's understanding. Okay. That felt good. That didn't feel good. I want to feel good. I w because that is my natural, you know, birthright is to feel good and understanding. Okay. What, what is happening here and what it, what is what life is showing me on a daily basis is an opportunity.
[00:25:32] It's an opportunity for me to curate what my personal preferences are. And as I identify what my personal preferences are, then I can lean more into those. And it's like, It's like following the crumbs on the trail. Right. And I would say in addition to that, um, you know, increasing your awareness for everyone, who's listening to this, um, is too.
[00:26:00] [00:25:59] Open up and find your way into surrounding yourself in the environment of people who lift you up, surround yourself around people who make you feel good, who are inspiring to you. You know, I would say if you're the smartest person in the room you're in the wrong, right? Sure. For sure. Yes. And so it's with that desire.
[00:26:27] Behind the desire. There, there is, there is a commitment there, right? There's a desire. But that, that, that, um, I believe that everyone has the ability to commit to their dreams. Everyone has the ability, but then to overcome the hurdles of where the fear set. That is really the work that each of us has to do in order to create and to cultivate anything that we've never done before.
[00:26:57] Anything that you've never done before [00:27:00] requires you to stretch outside of your comfort zone, because that's where change occurs. That's where change occurs. So, um, to answer your question, I would say two. You know, keep paying attention, keep paying attention. And if you are in experiences that are, you know, feeling, um, oppressive to you and violating to you, then this is information.
[00:27:30] This is information. You are out of alignment with what it is that you truly desire and you're the true essence of your being quite honestly. And so then with that information, one can take that in and say, okay, What kind of change do I need to make, and then finding the courage to make that change. And that's why a supportive community is so important because when you surround yourself around the [00:28:00] people who are making those changes or who have made those changes, you need that inspiration and it's it's reinforcement, right?
[00:28:09] It's we learn by repetition. So we want to put ourselves into the environment where. Our bodies and our minds and our spirits and our souls, our hearts are being filled with what it is that we want. I call it, you know, healthy body nutrition, healthy mind nutrition. So, um, so again, if anyone is finding themselves in a position in their lives, uh, where they don't feel respected on the level that they want to be, it is time to start respecting yourself.
[00:28:45] And time to get fierce about that time to get, uh, radical about accepting yourself first and starting to learn how it is that you can love yourself more and more day [00:29:00] by day. And I promise you, you know, what? We focus on grows, what we focus on grows and. So everything that we create in our lives has everything to do what we're focusing on.
[00:29:12] So if you want change for the better, then you start focusing on what it is that you want to change. And I always say the best place to start, and this is what I do for myself every single day is I make feeling good. The most important thing am I life? Feeling good. So when I catch myself thinking a thought that doesn't feel good, I stop.
[00:29:32] And I replace it with one that does, when I find myself taking an action that doesn't feel good. I stopped with my awareness and I replace it with something that feels good. If I'm thinking about contemplating, maybe spending time with somebody that I actually don't really want to spend time with. I stop and I draw my boundary for myself.
[00:29:55] And then communicate respectfully that this is not what I desire [00:30:00] at this time in my life. Right? So you, you have, you have got to start valuing yourself more and, you know, back to the external power, you know, when, when we reach outside of ourselves for love, when we reach outside of ourselves to feel empowered, right.
[00:30:18] That that's not, that's not authentic. It's not going to be authentic because the only person that is going to care more about you, how you feel and your dreams is you. And so you have every reason to be the become that person that believes in yourself. And that cares about how you feel and cares about your dreams more than anyone else.
[00:30:45] More than anyone else. And this is this enters into radical self-responsibility. Which I, which is a part of, you know, what I fold into my transformative process is teaching [00:31:00] women how to become radically responsible for the life that they're creating by way of who they are being, who they are choosing to be in their life, the identity that they are choosing to body embody.
[00:31:12] So are, are they choosing to embody scarcity or are they choosing to embody abundance? And, um, and it's pretty, um, clear which one it is. And when we identify that, then we go to work. When we start, um, making the changes and setting the tools and practices into place in order to transition from the scarcity identity, into the abundant identity.
[00:31:41] And that is where you. Cultivate that internal power, that inner power, that divine power from within,
[00:31:55] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:31:55] sorry, I'm sorry. I'm processing.
[00:31:57] Star Hayward: [00:31:57] I know this is very, very [00:32:00] deep. It's
[00:32:00] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:32:00] very deep. And, and, and yet on some level it's. It's funny because there's a part of me that's going well, of course. Right. And yet it's not something we, we think about. It's not something we, we give ourselves the opportunity to spend a lot of time on because people have to pay the bills and make sure there's food on the table and clean, you know, clean the kitchen sink or whatever.
[00:32:29] So, so this seems like it's almost a part of, this has to be. Integrated, if you will, into, as you said, your day-to-day life, but something you said very early on that I think sort of ties into this beautifully is you set the words, purpose led, and I, I wonder how does a purpose led life or a purpose led business?
[00:33:01] [00:33:00] Combined with, or integrate with this, this feeling of internal power. How, where do those meet and how can a woman use that fire in order to start or grow a business? That's going to have that purpose behind it.
[00:33:20] Star Hayward: [00:33:20] Another amazing, powerful question. I love this conversation. Yes. Um, so. When, when you feel that calling inside of you, it does not go away.
[00:33:35] Do you know what I mean? I know, you know what I mean? Because you are living your purpose led life. And, and there's a moment when, when that light bulb goes off, there's a moment for everyone when that voice speaks up inside of you. Now, when you answer the call is up to you. And [00:34:00] sometimes it takes a long time for people to answer that call because they have created their life to fit within a set of expectations that they have upon themselves that other people have put upon themselves, you know, wanting to, um, and feeling the need to fulfill this picture.
[00:34:22] That is what society dictates. Looks like success and achievement, right. And reward. And so often women find themselves feeling very empty and men too. But we're speaking about women here, um, find themselves very empty because they went after. All of these things and setting all of the, you know, the career success, becoming the mother, doing, you know, being, get their health and fitness and all of these things.
[00:34:53] And I work with women like this. So I'm speaking from my own professional experience [00:35:00] where they've climbed the ladder. They've achieved amazing success in their careers, and they feel absolutely empty inside. And they start to question why I don't get it. I is it that I feel so empty. I have all of this I've achieved so much and I have all of this.
[00:35:19] And yet I feel like I'm just a shell of a person and I don't feel connected within myself. And it's in that moment, often, it, you know, it's different for everybody, but it often takes coming to a place of, again, being in the experience of a profound experience of what you don't want. To wake up to what it is that you do want, and when you're ready, that voice will speak up.
[00:35:49] And when that voice speaks up inside of you and it says, allow your purpose is calling again. It just won't ever [00:36:00] go away. It. I know this, I know this. And, um, and so then it's, that is the opportunity. That's the invitation. The invitation to say, okay, okay. I get it. I'm here for a reason. I'm supposed to be doing something else now, crap.
[00:36:18] I've got to figure out what that is like. Oh no. Now I have a really big problem on my hands because not only, you know, is it a deep discovery and self exploration for, for many people? Some people comes very easily. It's like, oh yeah, that was right before me all, all along like, oh, let's do this. And then for others, it's like, oh no, I got to figure this out.
[00:36:42] I've got to find out. And no matter what the process is of becoming connected to your purposes, something that I actually help women do is to really excavate and find out what that soul expertise really is. And then we layer on all of the. Um, [00:37:00] the skills and training and, um, skillsets and knowledge and attributes that they've acquired along the way.
[00:37:08] But, um, no matter what the process is or how long it takes for you to get there, the invitation to step into a purpose led life truly is. An invitation to enroll in Ascension school. Like I, you know, and I, and I think, you know what I mean, too, because in order to really truly fulfill your purpose, again, it will, it will bring you face to face with your, all of your fears, all of your doubts, your limiting beliefs, and all of the layers that you adopted that had you creating your life.
[00:37:50] Well filling the expectations of others, or maybe it was your own that didn't, didn't really match. And wasn't really in alignment with you. You have to [00:38:00] then figure out how to peel all those layers and start to find a new perspective and a way to put a new meaning on things so that you can start the shift and let go of.
[00:38:15] Um, the perspectives and, you know, maybe some of the values that don't serve you and where it is that you want to go. And that is all part of the becoming who you need to be in order to tap into that inner power to find that inner strength to step into your purpose level. Um, so yeah, answering the call of your purpose, um, The byproduct of that in order to truly answer that call and fulfill that vision, uh, the by-product is that Ascension school, which will take you through a, quite a transformative journey [00:39:00] and into your, into your path.
[00:39:03] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:39:03] Wow. That was amazing. So I could keep you here for the next six hours and we can chat, but I know, I know you have a day to get to, and I, and I want to thank you so much for being here. I have just a couple more. Questions, if you don't mind. And I have one last one that is, uh, that is a question I ask everybody who comes on the show, but we'll get to that in a second.
[00:39:28] You said something that I, that I think is really interesting. You said that that self-love and, and being heart-centered being centered on your own heart can lead to that purpose led business. And I'm wondering how, how does someone who. Hasn't gotten to that point or maybe has gotten to that point, how do they take the next step?
[00:39:55] What is the step that will allow them to innovate? What is the step that will allow them to [00:40:00] make those, those changes? Maybe even on a global scale, what does someone like that need to do?
[00:40:06] Star Hayward: [00:40:06] Great question. Um, yes. So as you were pointing to, there are some people who wake up to what their calling is, and then they.
[00:40:17] You know, they embrace the path to get there and then others. Are you, it's almost like a reverse engineer. They need to embrace the path and then they fail. They get to their calling, but then there's probably going to be more or work on the other side. So is Y you know, with, with my, with my, um, business, it's called ascending the heart academy.
[00:40:41] And, um, and what I have created and ascending heart academy is the. Inner and the outer, uh, transformative journey so that, um, I meet each and every person where they are at along the way. So if we need to start with [00:41:00] heart work, if we need to start with the self love. And getting deeply connected and the, you know, deep, you know, exploration of the self that's, where we began.
[00:41:12] If I'm working with someone, who's like, I already have a business, I'm thriving in my business. It's going great. I'm ready to go to the next level. Um, but I, um, you know, shaking in my boots. I don't know how I'm going to do it. I don't know how I'm going to manage a team. I don't know how I'm going to be the leader.
[00:41:29] Then we go to. Um, starting there as well. So it's a very customized, very exclusive, um, wa very customized and exclusive program that I offer. Um, so I hope that answers your question that, yeah, it's, it's essentially, um, it doesn't really matter where you are. It just matters where, you know, you want to go and it begins with just asking the question, who
[00:41:59] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:41:59] am [00:42:00] I Pema Chodron?
[00:42:02] Who's a Tibetan Buddhist nun wrote a book called start where you are. And I, it sounds like you are thinking along the same lines as, as she is. Uh, so I, first of all, star, I want to thank you so much for being on the show. As I said, For another six hours, but I, but I realized that that I need to curtail my curiosity a little bit.
[00:42:23] Uh, and, and perhaps sometime you'll come back and we'll, we'll delve even deeper, deeper, deeper, see, I thought star and then the big dipper. And then I was, and then I, and then I was off to the races. So, uh, so would you mind if somebody says, I need to know more about star Hayward, how would somebody.
[00:42:42] Finding you, where, where can you be found online your website? If you could just say them, I'll put them in the show notes, but I'd love it. If you'd say them because people learn.
[00:42:51] Star Hayward: [00:42:51] Sure. Absolutely. So my website is ascending heart academy.com. My email address is [00:43:00] star@ascendingheartacademy.com. You're welcome to follow me or DM me on Facebook, uh, which I am star Hayward on Facebook and on Instagram at star Hayward coaching.
[00:43:13] I'm also out spar Hayward on club. And I co host rooms weekly, multiple rooms throughout the week. Um, you can also find me as an, uh, an executive contributor to brains magazine. In addition to this, as at global network. Um, yeah, I think that pretty much covers it.
[00:43:35] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:43:35] All right. Cool. Thank you that way. If somebody wants to find you, they have adequate ways of doing so.
[00:43:42] So here's my last question. And as I said, it's one, I ask everyone that comes on the show. It's a little silly, but I find that it yields some poignant answers. And here it is, if you had an airplane that could sky write anything for the whole world to see, what would you say?
[00:44:05] [00:44:00] Star Hayward: [00:44:05] You are pure love.
[00:44:09] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:44:09] I love that. That's wonder what a, what a delight. Thank you so much for that. It's always interesting to me to see how people answer it and almost always it's, it's just poignant. It's so it's powerful and deep, even though the question itself is rather silly star, once again. Thank you so much for being here.
[00:44:26] I really appreciate you taking the time to be on the innovative mindset podcast.
[00:44:30] Star Hayward: [00:44:30] It was a pleasure and an honor as all that. Thank you so much. I look forward to future conversations together. Me too. Maybe
[00:44:37] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:44:37] we'll meet up on clubhouse.
[00:44:39] Star Hayward: [00:44:39] Uh,
[00:44:41] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:44:41] that'd be great. My name is Izolda Trakhtenberg. I am here to remind you to.
[00:44:47] Right. And review the show. If you're liking what you're hearing, let me know what you're thinking and also to listen, learn, laugh, and love a whole lot. See you next time.
[00:45:00] [00:45:00] Thanks so much for joining me today. I really appreciate you being here. Please subscribe to the podcast if you're new and if you like what you're hearing, please review it and rate it and let other people know. And if you'd like to be a sponsor of the show, I'd love to meet you. On patrion.com/innovative mindset.
[00:45:18] I also have lots of exclusive goodies to share just with the show supporters there today's episode was produced by Izolda Trakhtenberg and his copyright 2021 as always, please remember, this is for educational and entertainment purposes. Only past performance does not guarantee future results, although we can always hope until next time, keep living in your innovative mindset.
*Thanks for supporting the podcast. If you purchase brain.fm through the link above, please note, I will receive some compensation.

Business Advisor, Entrepreneur, Chris Niemeyer

Business Advisor, Crypto Aficionado, Husband, and Father, Chris Niemeyer On How to Forge Your Business Life So You Can Prioritize Your Goals
Chris Niemeyer helps business owners design a business lifestyle they love by working smarter, not harder. As a business advisor and consultant, Chris’ FREEDOM Business System™ helps you work in your sweet spot so you work less, make more - and spend more time with your loved ones.
For years Chris ran his first multi-million dollar company mostly alone. When he became a father, he systematized, hired, and raised up a team to run his business so he could be more engaged at home and travel with his family. Nowadays you’ll find him coaching and consulting other entrepreneurs on how to work smarter, not harder by systematizing your business. He’s a family man to the core and is likely with his wife and 4 young kids at a beach in Florida or coaching their sports activities when not traveling the world together.
I believe we were all created for a purpose and need to get realigned to that. I help people overcome the obstacles that get them stuck so they can work in their sweet spot and live an extraordinary lifestyle.
This show is about talking with purpose-driven people.
Connect with Chris
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chrisniemeyer
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/niemeyerchris
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/niemeyerchris
Website: www.ChrisNiemeyer.com
 
Episode Transcript
Chris Niemeyer
[00:00:00] Chris Niemeyer: [00:00:00] One thing that I I'll even tell clients or friends that asked me a similar question about this is, you know, they say, boy, it's just seems so risky to go on your own to, to be an entrepreneur. And, you know, there's so much risk involved and that could be true on one hand, but I still, you know what, it's also kind of risky to stay in a job that maybe you don't love and really at the end of the day, Your employer calls the shots.
[00:00:30] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:00:30] Hi, welcome to the innovative mindset podcast. I'm your host Izolda Trakhtenberg on the show. You get my conversations with peak performing thought leaders, creatives, and entrepreneurs. We explore how you can innovate through creativity, compassion, and collaboration. I believe that innovation combined with compassion and creative thinking can save the world and I aim to bring you ways.
[00:00:52] You can do it too. If you're enjoying the show, I'd be super grateful. If you could support it by buying me a cup of coffee, you can buy [00:01:00] me a cup of@buymeacoffee.com slash Izolda tea. And now let's get on with the show.
[00:01:15] Hey there and welcome to the innovative mindset podcast. I'm your host. Izolda Trakhtenberg. I am so happy that you're here and I'm really honored and happy to have this gentleman here on the show today. And there are myriad reasons. One of which is we've both been students in the same. Classes. So you're going to hear us probably giggle about certain things.
[00:01:34] Might Kim Lauren Davis, if you're listening, you know, we're talking about you, Chris Niemeyer helps business owners design a business lifestyle. They love by working smarter, not harder as a business advisor and consultant Chris Chris's freedom business system. You know, I love that already helps you work in your sweet spot.
[00:01:53] So you work less, make more and spend more time with your lover. For years, Chris ran his multi [00:02:00] check this out. His first multimillion dollar company, mostly alone. When he became a father, he systematized hired and raised up a team to run his business. So he could be more engaged at home and travel with his family.
[00:02:12] Nowadays, you're going to find him coaching and consulting other entrepreneurs, how to work smarter, not harder by systematizing your brain. I need all the help I can get with that. So I'm really excited to talk to Chris about it. Chris is a family man to the core and is likely with his wife and four young kids at a beach in Florida or coaching their sports activities when not traveling the world together.
[00:02:32] Wow. Chris, thank you so much for being here.
[00:02:34]Chris Niemeyer: [00:02:34] . Izolda thank you. It is a pleasure. You have some amazing guests and I have listened. You have. A great communicator and interviewer. So I'm just excited to be here. Thank you again for the opportunity. Oh, it's
[00:02:46] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:02:46] my pleasure. My pleasure. I appreciate your kind words.
[00:02:49] That's very sweet. I, I wanna just, I want to jump into something that you said. And I adore it. You said that you believe that we were [00:03:00] all created for a purpose and we need to get realigned to that. I would love to hear from you what you mean. First of all, we were all created for a purpose. And what purpose would that be?
[00:03:10] Is it individual or is it something that's, that's bigger than one individual person and how do we get realigned to our purpose? What's the process someone would go through to, to be able to do that.
[00:03:24] Chris Niemeyer: [00:03:24] Yeah, great question. Well, and, and I, I, I'm going to speak through and kind of talk through, I guess my, uh, my, my lens of faith.
[00:03:30] So I just believe that there's a greater purpose that we all have. And, um, and so I think that regardless of your, your belief system or whatever, we're here for a reason, and there's those kind of three existential questions that I'd like to talk about. Who am I, why am I here? And where am I going? And I think sitting with those questions actually frequently, you know, whether that's on a, an annual basis, if you're kind of a planner and it's like, okay, turn of the turn of the calendar year is about to happen.
[00:03:58] What did I learn this year? You know, what, what am I [00:04:00] good at? What am I interested in it? And how can I apply that toward a purpose here on this earth to serve others. So I've, I've just been able to. Take action on that over the years. And, and let me tell you, and then we can talk about a story about this, but it's not always been pretty and I've.
[00:04:17] Misaligned in seasons two and had to kind of get back into that. So, uh, I'm, I'm a huge fan of just finding your purpose and, and living that out.
[00:04:29] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:04:29] I'm taking all that in for a second. It's so interesting to hear you say that you're a fan of finding your purpose and living it out because I know that there are a lot of people out there who, uh, sort of, they, they, they, they live their lives to do their work.
[00:04:45] And they perhaps watch jeopardy and this is not insulting jeopardy. Right? I love jeopardy. But, but the point is that it sounds to me like you're talking something that, that is a calling that's bigger than the day-to-day stuff of life. And I'm wondering [00:05:00] what the process is. What is, what is that, that you go.
[00:05:04] Uh, is it a dissatisfaction like, oh, I, I, I don't want to watch jeopardy tonight instead. I want to go out and change the world or whatever. What happens to someone when they get to that place of either doing that assessment like you do, or finding that they're perhaps dissatisfied with their status quo and want to change it?
[00:05:22] What would you expect someone to be going through at that moment?
[00:05:27] Chris Niemeyer: [00:05:27] Well, I guess if I may then let me just share it a personal experience. Probably your listeners here and others that have these kinds of stories. And sometimes frankly, we don't want to talk about them, but, um, I've just. Okay, to be more open about it.
[00:05:41] So my first career back in my early twenties of, of all things was in the political world, which is frankly, in our political climate, embarrassing to say, but, but you know, at an early age I got, I got thrown into, uh, leading, uh, the largest political action committee in Southern California. [00:06:00] And so I was around all these, you know, movers and shakers and big business people and had access to, you know, congressmen and all this stuff.
[00:06:07] As an, as an early 20 something, it was a fascinating experience. And I learned a little bit about that whole world for a few years there, but it was also never ending. It was one of those. Do you remember the Blackberry w seven connected to the Blackberry? Oh, yes. There'll be iPhone today, but, uh, uh, yeah, these are early years, so.
[00:06:29] It, it was just this kind of frenetic pace. You know, we, we were identifying candidates to run for office fundraising for them doing some lobbying. It was a never ending cycle. And I just remember this, this particular evening. And it's just one that you'll never forget, right. Is I'm just considering just the pace of life, by the way.
[00:06:48] My, we had gotten married early on as a couple. And so my wife had gone back to school and we were just living this fast paced life and. There was this particular evening where I'm just [00:07:00] driving home. This is from downtown San Diego. You know, city skyline is in the background, uh, in my rear view mirror.
[00:07:07] And I'm driving up, uh, north, north San Diego, right near the Miramar air force base. There's these fighter jets only as, you know, brave pilots going by is where they filmed part of top gun. Right. And I'm just thinking about man, what it must be like to be one of them. And they're just, they're they're bravery and, and no limits and all this stuff.
[00:07:25] And I'm reflecting on just I'm feeling kind of boxed in and, and running ragged, you know, and, and just am I doing what I'm supposed to be doing? And a song comes on the radio. I'm listening to the radio song comes on the radio and it's by a band called Switchfoot and it's. It's lyrics starts singing out over the radio, says, this is your life.
[00:07:46] Are you who you want to be? This is your life. Is it everything you dreamed it would be? And, uh, you know, I, I don't know how God speaks to people, but sometimes maybe it's in different ways. He's spoken through donkeys before. To me, it was, he was [00:08:00] speaking through the radio that day. And, and I think, I just remember pondering those words and then starting to just literally cry out.
[00:08:09] This is not the life I meant to live. This, this is not in alignment with who I am and my values. Um, I found myself, you know, compromised in certain situations in that political world. And I literally had to pull over to the side of the road because I had to wipe the tears from my eyes. Cause I couldn't see.
[00:08:26] And it was that evening when I waited for my wife to get home. That I said, you know, honey things have got to change. We've got to get back to, we have misaligned. I have misaligned my life and let's get back to what we're supposed to do and who we are. And literally that night as all of this is when we started this kind of process on a back of a napkin, we started listing out the things, what are we interested in?
[00:08:51] You know, what do we start. What, what do we, you know, decent good at? Where do we want to go? What, what, what, what just motivates us and fuels us. And that was the [00:09:00] start of my first kind of entrepreneurial journey, again, just realigning. So I think there's people that have those stories where they either hit rock bottom, or they realize that.
[00:09:09] I watched too many Jeopardy's in your example, I need to get off the couch and do something.
[00:09:15] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:09:15] Yeah. It, it is interesting that what you just said, that you, that you went okay, what, what, what am I good at? What do I, what do I love? What, what are the things that bring me joy? And it took a huge amount of self-awareness I think, to be able to do that, that you went, that you'd realize something had to change, but then you had the.
[00:09:36] Okay, let me step back and figure out what that is. And so when you did that, when you were in that space and you and your wife, and, and it's wonderful that she was there with you, you know, that she, that she supported these, these changes that you wanted to make. What was the next step? How did you go from, I work in politics and I'm not happy to the Chris I'm [00:10:00] talking to today who is, seems to be super happy.
[00:10:03] And, and, and you're doing your own entrepreneurial journey all the way to today. How did that happen?
[00:10:12] Chris Niemeyer: [00:10:12] Yeah. So literally taking that first list that we created, uh, along alongside that list, we had a values list and kind of what we anticipated for the next five years of our life as well. So really kind of vision casting too, and going from a, you know, a young, young, married couple to, Hey, we want to have kids.
[00:10:29] And if we're one of kids and raise these kids intentionally and well, What's that going to look like and what is our, our time availability with them. So we, we outlined, I want to have a, a business that if she chooses to, she can stay home and raise the kids. And, and so I, I began literally that next week approaching some of my mentors and saying, Hey, I'm making a pretty big decision here, but I'm gonna leave this political world.
[00:10:54] And, and what are your thoughts? And a few of them in the same week gave various [00:11:00] similar recommendations. And they said, Chris, you know, you, you're the kind of guy that you need to own and operate your own company. You need to find out what it is. You're passionate about. What is you're good at? So taking that list that we did and, and something bubbled to the top at that point in our lives.
[00:11:17] This was back in 2006. And, uh, my wife had worked for travel companies in the past. So she was engaged with that. We love to travel. We also had background in, in missions and kind of giving back to the community and the world. And so missions and travel. We were married together and took my business experience and kind of her marketing and that awareness of that area.
[00:11:37] And that was our first business. It was mission travel. We still own it to this day. Um, just the travel coordination, all that comes with these amazing trips that people take around the world to make the world a better place to, to give back. And so that was the foundation of our journey and it was one where, Hey, it's a home-based business.
[00:11:55] I'm working from my laptop. I can choose, you know, when I want to take it. [00:12:00] Break to play with the kids or, or not. And, and, and so that was for us kind of how we started that next step.
[00:12:07] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:12:07] I love that you're location independent. That's really cool. And it's, I feel like I'm dancing around a question that I want to ask, and I'm not quite sure how to ask it.
[00:12:18] You went from, you went from being someone who had a job who was working for others too. Too, you know, you shifted to having your own business. What, what, what was that like? What was the, what was, you know, this is the innovative mindset. How did you innovate? What did you do after the, the business that you've the first business that you started to get you okay with it?
[00:12:43] Because the thing that concerned. Honestly is that there are a lot of people who think that they could be entrepreneurs, but actually they might not be well suited for it. Or there are a lot of people who are well-suited to be entrepreneurs, but they are staying sort of stuck in [00:13:00] a job because they might be nervous or scared.
[00:13:03] How do you tell what is the, the best way for your mindset to shift in order to be able to do what you've done?
[00:13:15] Chris Niemeyer: [00:13:15] Yeah. Great, great question. And some complexities there too, but, um, you know, one thing that I I'll even tell, tell clients or friends that asked me similar question about this is, you know, they say it's point it's just seems so risky to go on your own, to, to be an entrepreneur.
[00:13:31] And you know, that there's so much risk involved. And that could be true on one hand. Um, but I say, you know what, it's also kind of risky to stay in a job that maybe you don't love. Really at the end of the day, your employer calls the shots, your employer or your market, or your industry is the one that is deciding, well, you have a job or not, to me, that's risky because you don't have control.
[00:13:58] You don't have the power to [00:14:00] make and pivot when, uh, an industry shifts or something happens as an entrepreneur. We have that ability and that maneuverability to. Tick and tack and Zig and zag. Right. And so I think there's, there's that awareness that it's like, well, I feel comfortable and, and safe in this job, but am I really, and I think that's a big step to just have some people understand is entrepreneurship while it might sound risky.
[00:14:29] For me, it's pretty exhilarating because you have, you have quite a bit of control over how things go and, and, um, I think that's a big mindset shift mindset shift that people, uh, need need to do.
[00:14:41] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:14:41] Hmm, there's something in. So, so fascinating about that. I don't know if you know who Tom Peters is. He's he's, uh, an author he wrote in, in search of excellence.
[00:14:53] He's sort of a leadership guru. One of the things that he says is that the leader's job is [00:15:00] to support the people they're leading so that they can shine. And so if you're an entrepreneur and you are. And you're the business, the owner of the business. How do you reconcile this notion that you just, that you just stated about, about, you know, you, you have a lot of control too, I guess, hiring or developing the team that will help the business, but also that you can support so that they shine.
[00:15:36] Does that. Th I, I hope that that question makes any sort of sense because it's a complicated one.
[00:15:43] Chris Niemeyer: [00:15:43] Yeah, no, it is. And there's, there's a lot to unpack there. I think, um, you know, predominantly. In our culture, you know, perhaps, and maybe worldwide, there are just a lot of unsatisfied employees because they don't have the right kind of leaders, whether that's the [00:16:00] manager or the CEO or the C-suite folks, a lot of people are, they're just punching a clock.
[00:16:04] And so they're not in satisfaction or alignment with their job, but there are those great exceptions of leaders who say, let's, let's make sure that everyone here feels they've got a purpose. They've got a role, you know, Starting as an entrepreneur, especially as, as a, as a solo preneur to, to start with like a lot of us, we're the ones wearing all those hats, right?
[00:16:26] We're we're the salesperson, we're the founder. We're the chief marketing officer. We're the finance bookkeeper. We're, you know, janitor, whatever it is. And as I explained to my coach in class, A lot of those hats are uncomfortable. A lot of those hats, frankly, don't fit because you're supposed to be wearing maybe one, maybe two hats roles in general.
[00:16:47] And there's other great people that fit those other roles with their own abilities and skillsets. And so it's your job as, as the leader, as the entrepreneur to bring in those right people. And I got [00:17:00] to that point, you know, years after mission travel, when I was still a preneur who was busy doing that at all, and then realized like, you know what, in order to.
[00:17:09] Scale this and keep, I keep my sanity, frankly. Um, I needed to hire the right people who are gifted, talented, and motivated in those areas. Does that help answer that question? It
[00:17:22] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:17:22] does. It's just, you know, like I follow Gary Vaynerchuk, I follow Tim Ferris and the things that they say are very similar to what you just said, that you have to hire the right people.
[00:17:35] And Gary Vaynerchuk goes, go so far as to say, you know, hire. And fire fast. Right? So, so that if it's not the right person, uh, then, then no harm, no foul. You've had your 90 days you're out. And that sounds kind of harsh, but that's kind of, it looks like what he does or what he used to do. I don't know if that's what he does still with VaynerMedia.
[00:17:56] So, so what is your thought on that, on that [00:18:00] notion? How do you find. The right people so that you can eventually sort of delegate and systematize your business so that you can play to your strengths.
[00:18:11] Chris Niemeyer: [00:18:11] Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of common, common answers there in terms of making sure that there's an alignment with various tests or assessments or programs that, you know, to kind of screen and vet employees.
[00:18:22] And I think that those are good. And I use, I use a lot of those, you know, everything from. Myers-Briggs and disks and all those kinds of assessments that we probably hear about in the work workforce. Um, but then, you know, I have a lot of things just in the interview process too, where it's like, tell me what you would do in this situation, you know, and just give them a lot of like this open-ended questions to really kind of understand their mindset, who they're, who they are, who they're coming from.
[00:18:47] Um, you know, they're, they're joining you in, in a different culture too. And so you need to make sure that the culture is a good fit. You know, with my travel company, that's all worked from home. I [00:19:00] have employees that are scattered across the country. So I need to make sure that if you're coming from a, a regular brick and mortar retail store down the street, that you're going to be comfortable working really kind of isolated.
[00:19:13] Um, you know, we've got. Chat features and video and all that kind of stuff. But at the end of the day, you're, you're kind of isolated and how are you with your time? And so just asking some of those questions about some of those things, to ensure that it is a good fit, um, you know, resumes, assessments that all helps, but sometimes just those really qualified open-ended questions can spur some dialogue and, and maybe raise some flags as well.
[00:19:39] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:19:39] Yeah, I can, I can, I can imagine that notion of. Sort of disseminating, figuring out who, who is right for a role and who might not be right. Would be, would be, you know, it is important. And it's also, it seems to me that your. Uh, sort of [00:20:00] perspective and correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm just sort of putting words in your mouth, but your, your perspective seems to be that you can't do it all and you shouldn't do it all right.
[00:20:08] In, in, in, in, in building or, or running your business. So if that's the case, If you can't do it all, how do you get to that mindset shift? We're going to be talking about shifts a lot, I guess. How do you get to that mindset shift that makes you go okay. I, for me personally, I I'm just accounting, accounting.
[00:20:29] I, I want to run away screaming every time I have to do it. So, so if that's the case, how do I, as, as the, as the, um, I'll be the test subject here. How do I do that? How do I let go of the, of the need to do it all? A and how do I, uh, how do I assess someone in something I'm not good at? Like, if I were to hire an accountant and I'm not good at it, how, how do you know as a leader?
[00:20:58] How do you know if you're not good at the [00:21:00] thing that you're trying to hire for? What do you need to do in order to make sure that you will find the right people.
[00:21:08] Chris Niemeyer: [00:21:08] Yeah. Great. Great question. Um, so from a mindset perspective, I think it's just understanding too, that again, back to that hat analogy of all that you're having to do and all the hats you're wearing your business, understanding, recognizing I don't have to wear them all.
[00:21:24] In fact, I shouldn't wear them all. If my business is going to grow and scale to where I want it to be. And for me to just work in my sweet spot, I've got to delegate. I've got to let other people. Do that. And that's, that's one thing. I mean, just taking a look at your business and go, if you have to show up every day, day in, day out, you know, hour by hour doing the routine maintenance tasks that you're doing in your business.
[00:21:48] I hate to tell you, but you don't really have a business. You have a job and you've got multiple jobs. All
[00:21:54] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:21:54] right. Many, many
[00:21:55] Chris Niemeyer: [00:21:55] hats, right. Hats. Yes. And so you've got to understand that. [00:22:00] If I want to make this a business, things need to change. And, um, gosh, if we have time in another story that was really foundational for my business to, to pivot and to shift in a big way, was that realization, um, cause I mentioned, you know, we start our business without kids and, and then now we have.
[00:22:18] Well, I remember when we got pregnant, right. My wife and I was, we were still in the business and she was like, okay, I'm pregnant. I'm having, I'm having this baby. This business is your baby. Now I'm running it. You know? And I just remember being so excited to be a dad for the first time. You know, we'd waited several years to have kids and, and just eager to, to meet him, to bond with him.
[00:22:40] And so when that first baby came, I mean, I was pretty, pretty darn involved. I mean, really to like the point. You know, I roll here because it was like, you know, the, the baby would get up in the middle of night and cry and need to be fed. And I'm like, you know, flipping the light on honey. I'll, I'll get him from the crib and I'll bring him to you and I'll rub your back and we'll fight over who gets to do the diapers and all that [00:23:00] stuff.
[00:23:00] And, and I really felt a close bond, you know, with him at that time. Well, fast forward a couple of years later, okay. Our business had grown substantially. We had, we had scaled a bit more, but I was still. Really wearing too many hats. I was doing too many of those roles, bookkeeping, like you just said, I was still doing bookkeeping at the time and just kind of going, oh my gosh, if I'm not at my desk or on the phone, like business, isn't getting done.
[00:23:28] Well, sun number two comes around and, and I'm just busy and I, I, I need the sleep. And so, you know, maybe I was, I was maybe useful the first few nights or a week, but it quickly turned into. You know, eyes are closed the middle of night, honey, the baby's crying. Can you go get 'em I'm going, gonna, I'm going to roll over and go back to bed.
[00:23:53] Well, something happens and it was, it was it's rocked us to the right. Uh, two months [00:24:00] into, into his birth and I'm not feeling the bond with them because I'm not around them and doing all this stuff. Uh, my brother and sister-in-law were coming down to, to spend the weekend and get to meet Noah for the first time.
[00:24:12] And we're waiting up by the fire forum and they call in and say, Hey, you know what, we're going to be late. Just go to bed. And we'll, we'll catch up with the guys in the morning when we get there. And so we threw a few extra logs on the fire head upstairs, put Mila down in his crib. Well in the middle of the night, about one o'clock in the morning, we get this loud knock on our bedroom door and seconds later, my brother bursts in the door and says, Chris, your house is on fire.
[00:24:36] Get out. And you know, we're just bewildered. I'm not sure what's going on. And, and my sister-in-law comes in. Grabs no out of his crib meeting him for the first time. And we throw on some blankets and jackets and rushed out of the house and sure enough, our, our roof was on fire. And, you know, we call the call, the fire department.
[00:24:57] They were able to come pretty quickly and extinguish the [00:25:00] fire. Well, the next morning when we, I go back to the house to meet the fire chief and our insurance adjuster. And, and as he brings us in the house and starts assessing the damage and talking about what they've discovered, we begin walking upstairs and, uh, I'm getting goosebumps now, but just, I'll never forget that that feeling of when he flung the door open.
[00:25:24] And he's talking and we look up and there's a big gaping hole in the ceiling and you can see right to the sky. And as he's talking, I looked down and right down there is our son's crib that was crushed and with charcoal and he is describing that this is the first place that the structure fell. Wow. And I just remember being cut to the core.
[00:25:54] And going, I almost lost my son, who I didn't even feel a great bond with at that [00:26:00] time. And I remember driving back to the hotel where we're staying and just processing all that and realizing Chris, some things have to change in your business. You just have a job and multiple jobs. And so you've got to get the right people.
[00:26:17] To come in and help you out. And that was a really pivotal time for us to make some big adjustments, make some big hires. And I remember going into that hotel room and my wife didn't know any of this, the time I had to tell her a lot about that, that circumstance later. But I just remember grabbing no in my arms.
[00:26:36] It's two months old now just kissing his little bald head and going things are going to be right. Um, and, and that was just the start of a new chapter in our business, a new chapter in our life where, you know, I wanted to be a super present father. I didn't care what the business was going to do or how it was going to scale.
[00:26:55] I just wanted to be engaged and active as a, as a daddy. That was my biggest [00:27:00] role in the, in the most comfortable hat that I wanted to wear and knew that everything else would, would work itself out. So for me, that's just one of those examples stories of going. You have to get to a point where you realize those roles.
[00:27:15] Aren't going to work and you've got to find the right people to getting engaged with them. So for what it's worth, I don't know if that answers fully your question, but, uh, but that was a foundational time to have that shift in the business mindset.
[00:27:30] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:27:30] Oh, well you answered a thousand questions there. I don't think it was just one.
[00:27:35] Thank you so much for sharing that. And I'm so glad that that Noah and all of you were w w you know, that you were all okay. Wow. Uh, Let, I just want to honor that for a second. I'm just so glad that you ha uh, wow. I it's, you know, and it's funny because the, the notion of being purpose driven or [00:28:00] purpose led, uh, yeah.
[00:28:03] It's it's very clear to me that you, that you have that, that you are purpose-driven and, and, and work from that truth, obviously, obviously. And so, so to, to bring it back to application, to, to, to sort of being practical, how. When you had that realization, when you realize that being a daddy was the most important thing, being a dad, a husband, a family member, uh, how did you take that into your business and systematize it and make it so that you could focus the bulk of your energy on your family?
[00:28:45] Chris Niemeyer: [00:28:45] Yeah. Yeah. And I use this in, in how I lead coaching clients now, too, that are, that are entrepreneurs that want to get out of their grind. Like I was. Um, and I give this analogy that, you know, you need to take a look [00:29:00] at your business as a big skyscraper. So just pick a skyscraper from your, you know, nearest downtown and look at that building and go that building represents my business and every floor on that build.
[00:29:13] Represents a department, a function of your business. So on one level, you've got your sales and one level you've got customer service one, then we've got finance or HR or whatever it is for your business. Where do you want your suite to be? Which level, which floor, where do you want your sweet spot to be?
[00:29:31] And to understand you need to work in that, in that room. And you can take the proverbial elevator and, and, you know, go back and forth every once in a while and check in on the sales team or the marketing team or whatever, but you need to be in your sweet spot. And so just identifying that to take a look at your business from a 30,000 foot view and go, what are the key components of my business?
[00:29:53] And then practically speaking, it's looking at okay. Is still inside my head, which [00:30:00] is, is usually the case for founders and CEOs. There's so much in your head that you've never documented that you've never systematized or put a standard operating procedure in place. And so I remember literally after that whole fire experience going okay, I need to do a really much better job of documenting everything that I do in my day.
[00:30:23] And what are the. Top 10 procedures or SOP is I need to put in place. So literally that's what I did. I mean, for those next few weeks, I'm logging time I'm taking on calls or emails or bookkeeping. Getting back to that, all those things where I'm like, you know what, I need to start training people. And, and considering if I want to get a higher director of operations, if I want to hire a director of sales, what is it that I'm doing now that I can.
[00:30:52] Document and explain to them, and then they can add even more from there. So that's just a very practical thing that anyone [00:31:00] can do is in terms of document in their time and how they're spending it and then getting the systems in play.
[00:31:06] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:31:06] Mm. Yeah, I, I use something called toggle track, which allows me to.
[00:31:12] Document exactly what I'm working on because otherwise I personally, my brain, the way it works, I wouldn't know. I wouldn't remember. So I have to, I've just spent 45 minutes on X and that's that's because otherwise I, I, you know, the way, the way my brain works. So, so how do we do that? If, if, if I'm an entrepreneur and if I want to do this system systematization, wow.
[00:31:35] That's a long word. If I want to systematize again, I, and I'm not. I'm not good at it. My brain doesn't work that way or whatever it is. Do you have any, any guidance, any materials, any, anything that you would be willing to share? Uh, that, that someone would go, oh yeah. I need to know X in order to be able to do [00:32:00] Y is there anything that you can recommend, any books that you've read, anything like that, that you would be willing to share?
[00:32:07] Chris Niemeyer: [00:32:07] Yeah, let me, let me think about the book's perspective, but you know, one of the things that we, instead of just logging undocumented stuff too, is really understanding what, what are the resources that you need in terms of software or hardware, if it, whatever your business might look like, um, you know, what, what checklists do you need in your business too?
[00:32:29] To show someone and document kind of the process and procedures that you, that you go through. Um, you know, like I had to, I had to develop call scripts. I had a very certain way of doing things with certain perspective clients or, or in the process right. Of a sale. And so just what are some of the scripts or the, uh, email templates?
[00:32:48] Right. We, we developed a whole library of email templates because we realized if you're sending the same kind of email more than twice. Just put it as a template or as a canned response. Right. So things like [00:33:00] that process flows are, are good. Um, I use a lot of tools like, like loom is an example of a video recording and messaging where you can document what you're doing in terms of ScreenFlow.
[00:33:13] So if I'm trying to just describe to an employee, Hey here, here's how I do this. Or even to a VA, I use this a lot now with, with virtual assistance. If I'm going to give a project, I'll start that out and just hit record on my screen, talk into the mic process, what I'm doing in my own mind, out loud to them, and then take it from there.
[00:33:34] So those are just little tips and tricks to use.
[00:33:38] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:33:38] I love that. I love that notion of here's here's exactly what you would do and, and it would be okay. It would be something that relates to other types of, of professional services and businesses and nonprofits and all of that. It sounds like these are universally applicable.
[00:33:56] Is that the case, do you think, or do you think that there are some things in the [00:34:00] sort of more for-profit realm that would not relate well to the nonprofit.
[00:34:06] Chris Niemeyer: [00:34:06] No, I think they would. I mean, any, any business profit or nonprofit has certain functions, right? They have certain processes a way of doing things.
[00:34:14] Um, I think really, if you, if you peel back the onion, a system or a systemization or whatever that mouthful is, it's really just a way of doing things and, and anyone. You know, uh, a child, a parent, a CEO, you have a way of doing things, so that can apply to just about anything.
[00:34:36] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:34:36] Yeah. I wonder about that. I mean, I work a lot in, in the space of people who are doing, uh, as I said, social impact and environmental impact.
[00:34:44] I was, I worked at NASA for over 20 years. What can I say? It, it, it doesn't go away. And so, so if that's the case, like someone like me or someone who's, you know, working for an animal shelter and all. Are there ways do you think for them to systematize as [00:35:00] well to make it so that for example, they could do more rescues or things like that, or again, do you think that, that something that's very, non-profit, that's very, almost volunteer driven would be able to do that.
[00:35:14] And how do you handle if you're working on this, how do you handle people who are VAs? How do you handle people who are volunteers? How does that work?
[00:35:24] Chris Niemeyer: [00:35:24] Yeah, no, I think you do. I mean, whether you're a, again, whether you're NASA or whomever you're working for, right. Um, there's a way of doing things. And so let's just say you're a volunteer and you're working for rescues.
[00:35:36] You have a way of doing something when you get that call or that lead, that there's an opportunity. What do you do next? You know, who do you call? How do you vet, if that's an actual, real live opportunity, what, what are the metrics or whatever that might look like in terms of the industry language that's in place for you to say, I've got to make [00:36:00] this call or do this, or do that.
[00:36:02] It's kind of like that if, then, then this scenario, which there's, you know, technology for now, but, but how, how would you do that? Or taking it to an extreme. You know, a pilot has something like 130 point checklist that he's got to tick off before he even turns on the propellers. And so that's just a huge, you know, huge safety precautionary type of checklist, but I think anyone profit or nonprofit has that ability.
[00:36:29] And then the second part of your question about, uh, you know, training a VA or checking in or whatever, I'm just a big fan of, of checking in with people routinely. Um, so whether it's a VA or, you know, I do a lot of real estate deals these days on the side. Um, if I've got a contract to work on a project, You know, four months or six months project in our contract, we actually have something in play.
[00:36:52] It's where it says, Hey, every two weeks, we're just gonna have a five minute call. I just want to check in how's it going? Give me some updates. You know, I do a lot of [00:37:00] stuff out of state, so I'm not even near where these projects are going on, but just to hear here's how things are going or snap, a couple pictures the same.
[00:37:08] Are you done with a VA or an employee? Whether they're working, you know, the next desk over or. Countries away. Um, those kinds of things can be done.
[00:37:19] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:37:19] That's that gives me such hope for myself. I certainly hope so. Yeah, I, that it I'm at that point, you know, where this podcast requires more help, more work than I can do in, in, in.
[00:37:35] You know, in 1 24 hour, 7, 24 hour periods. So you mentioned something about real estate deals. And we talked a little bit about this before we started recording this chat that you have gotten into both real estate and cryptocurrency. Can you talk a little bit about that? What does, first of all, cryptocurrency is one of those things that I've read about, and I don't, I honestly have no real.
[00:37:58] Fundamental [00:38:00] idea of what cryptocurrency is. So could you take a second and describe what it is and also what you're doing with it?
[00:38:08] Chris Niemeyer: [00:38:08] Sure. Yeah. This is something I've just been talking a lot more openly about here in the past several months, especially on social media, but. Uh, and unless the first part of the question after by cryptocurrency really is, is a digital currency.
[00:38:22] And so, you know, we're all now used to having it in our hands and our, our phones. We can do just about anything. Digitally, right. Whether you want to or not, you have the capability to load your credit cards and check out at the grocery store or, you know, Nordstrom and, and it's all done digitally. So we're used to that now.
[00:38:43] And so cryptocurrency and Bitcoin's kind of the gold standard in that that people might hear about on in headlines. Is built on a technology called the blockchain. And, and again, this, this could be a whole nother episode, but, but the technicality of the blockchain [00:39:00] is just, it's an open, open sourced ledger of transactions.
[00:39:07] And so. Let's go back to like bookkeeping as an example, coming up on this episode, for whatever reason, buy a bookkeeper,
[00:39:17] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:39:17] because I'm so terrible at it. I keep gnawing away at it. That's that's what it is.
[00:39:21] Chris Niemeyer: [00:39:21] Right. Right. So let me give this example. Right? So in the old days we had a file cabinet, right. And the file was in our, in our own office and we kept the ledger.
[00:39:33] We can. The books, so to speak, but only we had access to that. Right. And the blockchain and technology, it's all open source out there in the, in the network. We can see exactly what's there. And so I give this example in, in, uh, The previous decade, there was this massive accounting scandal that was by Wells Fargo.
[00:39:58] Wells Fargo created three and a half [00:40:00] million fake accounts, fake credit card accounts, fake checking accounts, savings accounts, all this stuff. They created that internally in people's names so they can get bonuses and kickbacks and commissions on this stuff. It was exposed. Wow. If that were on the blockchain, that couldn't happen, but because it was in house.
[00:40:19] They had full control. They had secrecy on it. Blockchain provides the transparency. And so, again, there's a lot of complexities to cryptocurrency, but it's just a medium of exchange that can be bought or sold, transferred over, uh, if you own it and you can, you can start using it. People literally now. Buy a Tesla with Bitcoin, they can transfer funds into their Starbucks app and buy a coffee with it.
[00:40:43] So it's it's usage is, is exponentially being, uh, being utilized in new ways these days.
[00:40:51] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:40:51] Okay. That's very cool. And also immediately I go, what are the governments of different countries [00:41:00] going to say about something that does not seem to require their oversight? How does that work?
[00:41:06] Chris Niemeyer: [00:41:06] Yeah. And that's a great question because I think you're gonna see a lot more.
[00:41:11] Scrutiny and, and regulation about this. Um, you know, right now, even just here in this country, whether it's the sec or the IRS, they're looking at different ways as cryptocurrency currency, is it an asset there's, there's ramifications for how they classify that? Um, in India, there's a bill going through parliament right now to ban cryptocurrency.
[00:41:34] And so how could that happen? You know, frankly, there's a lot of people in speculation saying they can't really do that because it's not something that's like a physical, you know, thing you can combine. And so there's a whole discussion about what will happen with that. Um, you know, I, I just got involved because I'm curious and, um, you know, back to my mentors, 16 years ago, [00:42:00] they, they outlined said, Chris, there's kind of three areas of.
[00:42:04] A great way to, to make a living, make a life, you know, perhaps generational wealth for yourself. And that is number one was entrepreneurship, you know, owning and operating a company. Number two was, uh, real estate and various aspects of that development or construction business or top realtor. And number three was financial markets, you know, be a hedge fund, be a trader or whatever they said.
[00:42:28] And these guys were respected greatly and they were very successful, uh, financially. Anyway, um, they said the secret though is if you're going to go that first route as a business owner, an entrepreneur is to take your profits and dump them in those two other classes as quickly as possible to really kind of grow the three-legged stool of, of financial wealth and independence.
[00:42:49] And so I've just followed that advice over the years and become more focused on that recent. In terms of just building up a real estate portfolio of rental properties and [00:43:00] then crypto, I just sort of dabble in and have fun with and trade and, and investor speculate in because I, I like, uh, I like the technology behind it.
[00:43:09] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:43:09] It's so fascinating that, that, that, that the three legged stool to me, what. What that does. What, what made me go, Ooh, sit up and take notice is the notion that if you want to have, like you said, independence for you, it, it seems to be time with your family and, and being, uh, being the best dad you can be.
[00:43:31] And that's fabulous. And for someone who. For example like me, we have a nonprofit that, that works to stop poachers in Africa. Uh, then, then those kinds of investments, those kinds of activities would, would go well to free up the time, you know, so that I could focus on those things. So, so talk to me a little bit about that.
[00:43:52] If you would, the allocation. You know, the way, the way I live is you've got one life, make it count. So, [00:44:00] so for me, I want to see what are the possibilities, right? And so it sounds to me like you are sort of the poster boy for, for this kind of, sort of triple threat, if you will, what are your thoughts on that?
[00:44:14] As far as allocating that purpose driven life, maybe it's. For business, maybe it is for you, you, you set it up so that you can have your business, have your real estate or cryptocurrency or whatever those things are for each individual person so that you can then be free to do what else you want to do.
[00:44:38] How do you feel about that?
[00:44:40] Chris Niemeyer: [00:44:40] Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, it gets back to again, purpose and values too. And so like you described each person needs to understand clearly what, what it is they're focused on. What makes an ideal lifestyle for you? You know, is it involved in some nonprofit activities or.
[00:45:00] [00:44:59] Things halfway around the world or across the street. That's gonna fill you up and fill up your purpose cup. So to speak. Uh, again, for me, it's, it's all about family, you know, and being the best husband and father I can be and raising these kids in a way that gives them. Um, opportunity and purpose within themselves.
[00:45:18] And I'm involved in other, other things as well. And, and non-profits and such, but for me, that's, that's my biggest focus in this season of life. Um, you know, my youngest is five, so I've got what maybe 13, 14 years of. I've heard, possibly being under the roof. You know, I don't know how that's going to boomerang effect thing works, but we'll see, we've got four kids.
[00:45:39] I'm pretty sure we'll have some kids around for awhile. Uh, but I think that that is my focus. Right. And so if that is the focus and I've been blessed to have some of these business ventures and, and, and just taking some of those profits to reinvest. The allocation question then becomes, you know, [00:46:00] what's, what's your risk tolerance, what's your, um, you know, asymmetric risk.
[00:46:05] So for me, and this gets a little more into the weeds too, but cryptocurrency for example, is very volatile. And so the risk reward can be pretty high, but there's a major price fluctuations and swings. And so you're not going to bet the farm. You're not going to put your entire investment portfolio into something like that.
[00:46:26] But if you. 2%, 5%, 10%, let's say. And that has the potential to go. 10 X or 50 X or these crazy values that some people have realized the last couple of years, um, that can do something pretty substantial for your own portfolio and net worth. And so, so you have to kind of look at that and evaluate that from a real estate perspective.
[00:46:49] There's multiple, multiple ways to be involved in that. Whether you want to be a bit more active like men and finding deals and vetting them and putting offers in or buying cash or [00:47:00] whatever. Uh, but there's also. You know, REITs real estate investment trusts that you can buy, uh, from the stock market. And so that's just a question of your own allocation and risk tolerance, I think is, is, uh, the best answer there.
[00:47:14] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:47:14] It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a valuable answer because a lot of people think they should be involved in things like this, but maybe they're not well suited for it. You know, that they're, that's not their temperament there to me. But that this whole notion of cryptocurrency and, and, and, and, you know, they say playing the stock market, it's not playing it's, it can be actually quite intense.
[00:47:36] And yet, and yet the way for example, I live with all of this is don't invest anything you can't afford to lose a hundred percent. Right. So, so that seems to be, I am very low I'm risk averse, I guess. And, and yet the thing is that within that, when we're talking about this notion of it comes back, I guess, to self-awareness when we're talking about, you know, what [00:48:00] are you prepared to lose and how much are you prepared to risk?
[00:48:04] And it sounds to me like that goes for everybody, whether or not you're working a job or whether or not you're an entrepreneur or business owner, et cetera, you have to know that about yourself. You have to know what are you prepared to lose and what are you prepared to risk? And so what do you think, how would, how would someone, how would someone figure that out?
[00:48:24] What they're prepared to lose?
[00:48:28] Chris Niemeyer: [00:48:28] Boy, that's a, that's a complex problem. Situation, uh, for most people, but I guess it boils down to, like you said, do you feel like you can just lose it all and be comfortable with that? Or do you feel like, yeah, cause there's extremes, right? There's people that would bet the farm and be like, okay, well I'll go save it again and make it up.
[00:48:49] And, and that's fine. There's also those that are like, I'm going to stick this under my mattress. Cause I don't want to lose it. You know? So somewhere on the spectrum, we all lie. And so I think [00:49:00] just understanding. That and taking a look at, let's just say, you know, the whole wall street experiment, so to speak because really frankly, it's only been less than a hundred years that a normal individual can go and buy a stock.
[00:49:15] So that whole financial services industry is, is relatively new. And, and that's what we get pushed. All the time, it's a massive, massive industry. And so, you know, are you, are you comfortable with seven, 8% and, and taking that slow growth approach of it's going to take 40 or 50 years of working or whatever to get to that retirement point, or are you comfortable maybe taking five or 10 or 20% or whatever that might be into these, you know, quote unquote riskier, uh, play.
[00:49:47] Again, that's a personal decision you've got to just set with and go, how, how would I feel if this dropped 50% or whatever, do you need more money in the mattress or money over [00:50:00] here? Right.
[00:50:00] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:50:00] And it's absolutely. And, and it's interesting. I mean, we're not giving financial advice here and I have to say that because no, no, no.
[00:50:08] I am not qualified. I am the least qualified person to give financial advice for sure. And yet, this is something that I think it behooves us to think about because everybody is looking and assessing, especially this year of COVID, you know, where they are and, and how they're going to. Proceed, you know, I know a lot of people, a lot of my guests actually have, have made significant changes because of the time in, you know, in the pandemic and sort of really think being, being alone with your thoughts, like you said, being kind of isolated and being alone with your thoughts.
[00:50:43] So I I'm wondering what were the realizations, if you had any that you had during that time, when you were sort of sequestered, if you will.
[00:50:53] Chris Niemeyer: [00:50:53] Yeah. I, I think, uh, that whole, that whole year for a lot of us, right. [00:51:00] Probably brought on some awareness of, um, you know, am I financially secure or safe or whatever. I mean, everyone, everyone was losing their job or their, their company was, uh, you know, frozen for awhile or whatever that might be.
[00:51:15] We, we all had a lot of fear grip us and. And I remember just having to sit with that and go, okay, where were we? Let's just throw everything out there on the table and take a look at that picture. So that's something that we can all do and go, okay, what are there changes that need to be made? You know, the savings rate went through the roof there for awhile because we were also.
[00:51:40] Scared and scattered, oh my gosh. Um, I've been living paycheck to paycheck and you know, now I need to save up three to six months like Dave Ramsey says, or whatever the case may be, um, which is not bad advice, frankly. Right. Uh, to I'm looking outside and I'm looking at squirrels right now. I mean, they, they sock away their, their stuff for the winter [00:52:00] because they know that you need to do that.
[00:52:02] And so I think there's a bit of that personal introspection to go, you know, where are we. Data in front of you doesn't lie, you know, w whether it's your paycheck or your business, or your bank accounts or whatever, and, and what are you more comfortable with? That's that's always a good place to start.
[00:52:22] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:52:22] Yeah. Again, what, what are you willing to risk and what are you not willing to risk? Absolutely. Chris, I am so grateful that you took the time to chat with me today. This is I could keep you for another four hours and we could, you know, cause I have many more questions, but uh, but I know you've got, oh, thank you so much.
[00:52:40] Yeah. You, I know you've got, you've got kids to get back to, so I, and, and, and I want to respect your time and. So I would love it. Actually, if you wouldn't mind, uh, I have just a couple more questions, but the big one is, would you mind sharing? How is someone goes that Chris guy, he knows what he's talking about.
[00:52:59] I want to, I [00:53:00] want to go find him on social. Would you mind sharing where someone could find you if they were interested in learning more about what you're doing and how you're doing it?
[00:53:09] Chris Niemeyer: [00:53:09] Yeah, absolutely. Well, and thank you again. This is really a pleasure. You're a masterful, uh, Conversation starter. So interviewer, so I really appreciate the time, but yeah, you can find me on Instagram at Chris Niemeyer.
[00:53:24] Uh, maybe put that in, in the links there Niemeyers in I E um, and Facebook saying. And LinkedIn as well. So I'm pretty active on Instagram and Facebook. And then my website is Chris niemeyer.com.
[00:53:37] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:53:37] Perfect. And actually I will put all of this in the show notes, but just so you know, the LinkedIn is actually Niemeyer Chris.
[00:53:45] And so is Facebook. It's Chris Niemeyer on Instagram and LinkedIn. It's Niemeyer, Chris, N I E M E Y E R. Chris. And if you don't know how to spell Chris, I'm sorry.
[00:54:01] [00:54:00] Yeah, that one, that one. Hopefully won't be, I mean, my name is older and I recently got a piece of a piece of snail mail address to  and I have no idea how they got from Izolda to a Zimbra, but I thought that was really amusing anyway. So. Yeah, it was, it was very strange. So I, again, I want to thank you. And I have just one more question.
[00:54:23] It's a question. I ask everybody who comes on the show and it's a silly question, but I find that it yields some poignant answers. And the question is this. If you had an airplane that could sky write anything for the whole world to see, what would you say.
[00:54:40] Chris Niemeyer: [00:54:40] Um, mine would be live on purpose, live on purpose.
[00:54:46] And I think that would help people understand or at least to ask themselves what does that mean? And am I. That's
[00:54:54] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:54:54] fabulous. I love it. That's so succinct. I love it. Love it. Love it. Thank you, Chris. Once again for being [00:55:00] here, I really appreciate it. I I'm so grateful. I learned so much just talking with you and I'm sure if you're listening, you learned a lot from this as well, and you need to go find Chris Niemeyer on.
[00:55:13] Instagram, LinkedIn Facebook and on his website. See what he's up to because obviously he's doing some really cool stuff. This is his older Trakhtenberg for the innovative mindset podcast. If you're liking what you hear, do me a favor. Go to. Apple podcast rate and review. Tell me what you're thinking. I'd love to hear about it until next time.
[00:55:31] Once again, this is his older. Trakhtenberg reminding you to listen, learn, laugh, and love a whole lot.
[00:55:43] Thanks so much for joining me today. I really appreciate you being here. Please subscribe to the podcast if you're new and if you like what you're hearing, please review it and rate it and let other people. And if you'd like to be a sponsor of the show, I'd love to meet you on [00:56:00] patrion.com/innovative mindset.
[00:56:00] I also have lots of exclusive goodies to share just with the show supporters there today's episode was produced by Izolda Trakhtenberg and his copyright 2020. As always, please remember, this is for educational and entertainment purposes. Only past performance does not guarantee future results, although we can always hope until next time, keep living in your innovative minds.
 

The Surprising Truths I've Learned After 400 Podcast Episodes - an IzoldaT solo episode

400 Episodes!!
I can't believe I'm at this milestone. How exciting. In celebration, I've decided to explore the biggest lessons I've learned from doing hundreds of interviews and making 400 episodes of the show.
And, of course, I couldn't just chat. I also have fabulous prizes!
Listen to the episode to find out how to enter or see the transcript below for the explanation.
Here are the prizes.
You could get this super fun sticker of the show (just follow the podcast's IG page and DM me that you've done it).
You win a copy of any of my books.
Or, you could win copies of all of them (with a pdf of the one that will come out later this autumn).
Subscribe to the show or listen on any podcast platform.
Connect with me.
https://www.instagram.com/izoldat/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/izoldat/
https://twitter.com/IzoldaT
Episode transcript
400th episode
[00:00:00] We're better when we're together and we're better when we're contributing. So don't wait, start, try, do, and grow. And you are going to be amazed at the things that you will uncover and achieve. If you just start where you are, but start that thing. You want to try to start it. It is crucial and key for all of us.
[00:00:20] If you bring your particular creative genius out into the world.
[00:00:29] Hi, and welcome to the innovative mindset podcast. I'm your host,  izolda Trakhtenberg. On the show, you get my conversations with peak performing thought leaders, creatives, and entrepreneurs. We explore how you can innovate through creativity, compassion, and collaboration. I believe that innovation combined with compassion and creative thinking can save the world and I aim to bring you ways you can do it.
[00:00:53] If you're enjoying the show, I'd be super grateful. If you could support it by buying me a cup of coffee, you can buy me a cup [00:01:00] at buymeacoffee.com/IzoldaT. And now let's get on with the show.
[00:01:14] Hello, and welcome to the innovative mindset podcast. My name is Izolda Trakhtenberg I'm your host and I am thrilled and honored that you have chosen to listen to the show today and spend a little time with me because I am celebrating today. This episode marks 400 episodes of this podcast. I can't believe it.
[00:01:35] I'm super excited. And as promised, if you listen all the way through to the end, We're going to have fabulous prizes. I'm super excited. So here's the thing I have to say that I am. I just I'm privileged. I'm privileged to be able to interview peak performing creatives and Changemakers. These are people who are working in the social impact, creative, environmental, and [00:02:00] animal rights space.
[00:02:01] To change the world. That is their mission. That's what they're trying to do. And I'm honored to bring their ideas, their thought processes, the way they do things and how they achieve what they achieve to you. It's incredible. And I'm thrilled that I've gotten a chance to be part of their lives and their process, even though it's a tiny, tiny bit.
[00:02:22] But I'm so glad that they have enriched my life, my world. And of course, this podcast, when I first started the podcast, I had no thought in my head, it was going to be like this. At first, it was five minutes a day. And I'm just going to talk about creativity. And as it evolved, I realized I'm not the only one who should be talking.
[00:02:40] You know what I mean? I wanted to be, I wanted to bring you information from people who are change-makers, who are peak performing innovators. Many fields and the ones that are closest to my heart are of course, creativity, art, and music, and social impact. How are they [00:03:00] making the world a better place? And of course, animal rights and environmental activism.
[00:03:05] So there's, so there's such a wealth of knowledge and, and the people who I interview are incredibly gracious with their wisdom. So I'm really grateful for that. I decided that the way to celebrate these 400 episodes is actually to sort of detail out what I've learned across these 400 episodes. And so I'm going to talk to you a little bit about that.
[00:03:31] And if you have questions, if you have thoughts and ideas, I'd love to hear about them. If you have any realizations about what I'm talking about while I'm talking about it. I'd love to hear about that too. And as I said, if you stay to the end fabulous prizes and fabulous, of course, is in quotes I've actually discovered and coined a new word recently.
[00:03:51] I'm calling things, fabtastic, so fabulous and fantastic together, fabtastic. So you'll probably start hearing me say that a lot more [00:04:00] because that's really the glee and the joy that I feel whenever I get a chance to talk to some of these incredible change-makers. So. In order, no, that's not true.
[00:04:11] Maybe in order, maybe not in order, but these are the things that I've learned after 400 episodes of the podcast. One, people are generous with their time and wisdom. They'll come on the show and let me ask them hard questions and they go deep to bring what they really believe and how they really behave.
[00:04:31] They bring such a wealth of knowledge, such wisdom, and they do it incredibly generously. Number two, the causes you believe in are the ones to dedicate your life to. I believe in art and music, and I believe in saving the planet and the animals. And the more I talk about these things, the more doors open for me to do more and serve better.
[00:04:54] So dedicating yourself to what you believe in. [00:05:00] We'll help you find others who believe what you believe or who at least are interested in supporting you on your journey as you support them on their. Number three, don't be afraid to innovate. Don't be afraid to solve problems in weird ways and try new stuff.
[00:05:19] I've recorded this show on my phone. I've recorded while my guests dog threw up in the corner. I've recorded in busy conference rooms. I've recorded while walking my dog in the rain. We're better when we're together. Right. And we're better when we're contributing. So don't wait, start, try. Do. And grow, and you are going to be amazed at the things that you will uncover and achieve.
[00:05:46] If you just start where you are, but start that, then you want to try start. It. It, it is, it is crucial and key for all of us. If you bring [00:06:00] your particular creative genius out into the. Number four. This is something I've known about myself for a long time, but it came home yet again, doing this podcast. I'm nosy.
[00:06:14] I love learning about people. I love hearing what makes them tick. I love hearing what their processes are. I love helping in any way I can to get their message out. And sometimes it's really cool is that they, while. Really deep in these conversations, they'll have realizations John Kao, who was recently on the show.
[00:06:32] I asked him a question about his six intelligences and how they relate to music and live on the show he went through and related them all. And he'd never done that before. So it was so amazing to be. Even a little part of his process as he realized those things and that whole idea of being nosy. I don't know if I've talked to you.
[00:06:52] I think I've talked to you about this before the overheard project that I have been [00:07:00] doing for a while. And that is that I'm a shameless eavesdropper, and I happen to have a terrific memory. So I'm able to keep entire conversations in my head. And I have been overhearing shamelessly eavesdropping on people's conversations.
[00:07:13] For years and I've notated them all down. And the book overheard life lessons through eavesdropping is going to be dropping sometime this autumn probably in time for the holidays. It's going to be some sort of an art book and I'm excited about it because it's again, bringing that little bit of slice of life, about how we do things about the things we care about, about the things we love with love and sex and family and friendship and work.
[00:07:38] All of these things we talk about. And we, we all say such wisdom. We don't pay attention to it though. It's almost like I wish I could find all of those people who have given me gifted me with such wisdom as they just go on about their lives. And I shamelessly eavesdrop because I love to give them credit, but you know, maybe then maybe they'll [00:08:00] maybe they'll buy the book and they'll realize, oh, that was me.
[00:08:04] I don't know if that'll ever happen, but it would be really amazing and hilarious. Number five. The podcasting industry has exploded where they used to be a few hundred thousand. There are now millions of podcasts. So if you've got something to say and you want to start one, don't wait until you have just the right equipment.
[00:08:26] Don't wait until your studio is perfect. There will always be another super cool microphone and more soundproofing and better gear. You'll have gear envy like crazy, but what's more important is to get your words out there. Do you remember the movie pump up the volume? Talk hard. My favorite moment in the whole movie is the credits.
[00:08:46] When you start hearing all the people who grabbed the courage with both hands and started talking into a microphone, so start and build your gear and your show along the way. There are people out there who are building their businesses, teaching other people how [00:09:00] to start their shows. You can also find everything you need.
[00:09:03] On YouTube. I promise you can totally do that. If you've got the resources and you can also bootstrap and start talking about your topic on your phone, number six, your topic can evolve. You can start out like I did and talk about storytelling and then move to creativity only. But then I moved to innovation because I've always loved creativity.
[00:09:24] With a purpose. That to me is the most important part is a creative on a mission. That's what an innovator really is. As someone who's a creative, who thinks laterally, who thinks from, from different angles to solve problems, to come up with new ideas and new ways of doing things, that person is a creative on a mission.
[00:09:44] And that's what an innovator is. That's what. Do. And it's really exciting to me to get a chance to talk to so many different innovators from so many different possible arenas. You know, I never in my life, what I have [00:10:00] imagined, some of the people who were willing to come on the show and talk to me about how they innovate.
[00:10:04] And that brings me to number seven, communication is the vehicle and connection as the result. Really honestly, I had no thought in my head that someone like Tom Peters, who is a communication guru, he is arguably the greatest leadership expert in our generation. And certainly for the last few generations, not only has he been willing to come on the show once, but twice to talk about his ideas about.
[00:10:30] What he calls extreme humanism. And that is that we should be leading thinking about the people first and not the bottom line. He believes we should always promote from within that women should be on the boards and leading businesses because women are so much better at investing at communication at looking at and dealing with people and figuring out how to grow businesses and companies and organizations.
[00:10:55] Long-term. I had no thought in my head that we would connect and communicate [00:11:00] and, and have such substantive discussions. Another person who's just thrilled me that he was just on the, he just recorded his episode, his episodes actually going to come out sometime in August or September. Peter Shankman was willing to come on the show and talk about how.
[00:11:16] His ADHD, his attention deficit and hyperactivity disorder is actually his super power to innovate and to be a creative thinker who thinks laterally and who helps companies and businesses all over the world and organizations and people all over the world innovate and make incredible inroads. Yeah. The way the world will be formed and move moving forward.
[00:11:42] How can, how can you possibly, I can't even get over it because I'm just. I'm just lucky. That's I'm lucky. That's not true. I okay. I'm not going to be falsely modest. I worked my patootie off. That's true, but I don't do it alone. And that brings me to number eight, [00:12:00] calling your friends. They will be there and they'll help you along the way.
[00:12:03] Like Al Pettaway, Grammy award, winning guitarist and musician and Andrew Lippa, Tony nominated and also Grammy award winning and Emmy nominated. He just got nominated for an Emmy Andrew lipo, who is. An amazing composer and lyricist, and who wrote the music and lyrics to the Broadway sensation, the Adams, family, and other shows and T Morris, who is an incredible author and entertainer and the author of books like podcasting for dummies.
[00:12:33] They have all been on the show and have been very gracious with their wisdom. And I'm very glad because. They they were willing to give me their, their wisdom and their knowledge and be part of the process as this show has evolved. And you know what it's about time to get them all back and see where they are now because ti was last on the show.
[00:12:54] Last autumn, Andrew was last summer and Al Pettaway was left, was not this [00:13:00] past spring, but the previous spring and why not see where they are so I can get even more information and get even more wisdom from these wonderful men. Privileged to call my friends, but then that brings me to number nine. And number nine is actually about solo episodes.
[00:13:18] One of the things that has been such a revelation to me is that when I first started out, I did only solo episodes. And please, in case, because it won't know how should I put this really? Mainly because I was, I was a little trepidatious. I was a little afraid. What would I ask for people to join me to talk about?
[00:13:37] And would anybody ever come on the show and. Certainly they have and they continue to, and I do incredible I get incredible information and interviews with such gracious wisdom from all of the people who come on the show. But then there are some times when I have things that I would like to ruminate on discuss and explore, and those are the solo episodes.
[00:13:59] And one of the [00:14:00] things that I've learned is that there is a time and place for both. You can indeed do. Both solo episodes and interview episodes. If you want on this kind of a podcast, you know, when, when T Morris was gracious enough to put the innovative mindset podcast into podcasting for dummies, he and his co author placed it in the slice of life section of the, of podcasts that they recommend.
[00:14:25] And I thought that was really interesting because. It's not, this show is not so much business, not so much entrepreneurship, not so much slice of life, but yet it's an amalgam of all of them as we explore what it means to change the world for the better, ultimately through different and various forms, whether it's creativity, social impact, environmentalist, or animal rights, the show aims to explore how we all can make a difference and make a change and make the world a better place.
[00:14:55] So sometimes. Privileged, as I said to have [00:15:00] interviews, to have people come on the show and give their wisdom. And sometimes these solo episodes are an opportunity for me to give you substantive ideas on how you yourself can take some of the principles that the people who've been on the show have talked about and make them your own and become your own change maker.
[00:15:17] If that is what you want to do. Number 10. Yeah, I think I've just talked about this, but here we go. Interviews, as you start out, people come on, your show are doing you a favor they're giving of their time and resources to help you yet. At the same time, if you have even one listener, you'll helping your guests reach someone who didn't know about them before.
[00:15:41] Be generous with your time, wisdom and resources. The host guest relationship is important and you can build lifelong friendships and relationships. If you treat your guests with courtesy and respect. And I'm so, as I said, honored and privileged to have these incredible people on the show. [00:16:00] And I'm so grateful that they're willing to do this to be on the show and to give of their time and their knowledge.
[00:16:08] It's it's incredible. Number 11 ask. Good questions. Be different, figure out what your podcast point of view is. And then use that as the lens through which you take your listener on a journey. And that's kind of what I do I think. Or at least that's what I try to do. This podcast is a little different because these conversations go really deep.
[00:16:31] And one of the things that a lot of my guests say is, you know, No one's ever asked me that question before or, wow. That's a great quote. I need to think about that for a minute. And that's one of the things that I aim to do is to ask questions that give people, pause that make them, give them the opportunity to go deeper into what they've been talking about.
[00:16:54] And I said this recently to a guest of mine mayor Meredith Gren dye, she and I were talking [00:17:00] about. This notion of asking deep questions. And one of the reasons that I said to her, one of the reasons that I, that I like asking deep questions is because frankly, if you're a podcast guest, for example, and your audience listens to you, they probably listen to you talk about a lot of the same things a lot, but what if someone asks a question.
[00:17:24] That you've never answered before. Wow. The mysteries you could be solving. Right. So that's one of the things that I aim to do with asking deep, good questions. And I, and I plumbed the depths as much as I can. I'm patting myself on the back here a little bit, but I really do try. And the reason for that is because.
[00:17:43] My guests to feel like they have benefited in some small way from being on the show, as much as the amazing ways I've benefited from having them on the show. Number 12, a podcast is a [00:18:00] sacred trust, like the Y storytellers in many of our myths. As a podcaster I've taken on the task of telling stories or inviting other people to share their stories only instead of sitting around the bonfire under the cover of darkness, I'm sitting at a mic and telling stories, or I'm inviting the person I'm interviewing.
[00:18:22] To sit behind their mic and tell you their story. And there's something so powerful about that hearing stories. We we've been doing it as long as we've been verbal. Someone has asked why or what or how, and someone else has answered. Or they've explored together. And that's one of the things that I aim to do with this show is to give us all an opportunity to explore together what it means to be an innovator, a creative thinker, and someone who wants to change the world for the better.
[00:18:55] My guests are going to be. They're, they're all [00:19:00] amazing. They're going to floor you over the next 400 episodes because I'm not going anywhere. This, this show is going to be around. As long as I'm around, I'm going to, I'm going to be 98 years old and barely able to talk. But by gum, I'm going to be out here somehow trying to do this.
[00:19:19] Because I think the notion of innovation and how we can be creatives on a mission to make the world a better place. I think it could potentially save all of us. And I would be remiss if I did not, I would be shirking my responsibilities if I did not make that a priority in my life because we have.
[00:19:44] Such an incredible responsibility at this tipping point in our species, survival and this at this time of great climate change and habitat destruction, and so many other things, being challenging, that innovation, I [00:20:00] think being creative on a mission will allow us the opportunity to change the world and make it a better place.
[00:20:11] So, those are the things that I've learned from doing this podcast. And I am thrilled and honored that you have been listening and being on the show and being on the show. My brain, see, my brain is fried. I've had, I did three interviews today. It was a busy day. So my brain's a little fried, but I, but I do, I do feel like you're on the show with me because I feel like I'm talking to you when.
[00:20:39] When I'm doing the show and I feel like we're all sitting around in the end. It's funny. Whenever I'm welcoming a guest to the show, I always say, imagine we're sitting in a cafe and having a cup of coffee together or to two or whatever, it's just a chat. And yet, sometimes. Somebody makes small talk and, oh, hi, how are you?
[00:20:57] How's the weather. And sometimes all of [00:21:00] a sudden the conversation goes intense and deep, and you're really thinking, and you're really innovating. And you're really coming up with ideas that you're articulating that you may never have articulated before. And you're doing it for thousands of people who are listening.
[00:21:14] It is such an honor and so incredible. And I'm super grateful that you're part of this journey. So here we go. I promised you fabulous prizes in the show notes. If you look on the website, you'll see that there's this really cool. It almost looks like dichroic, but it's not. It's like a reflective, really cool rainbow sticker.
[00:21:38] Of the innovative mindset podcast. And I have recently started an actual innovative mindset podcast, Instagram. And so here's how the fabulous prizes are going to go. The first 20 people who follow the Instagram account for the innovative mindset podcast, which is just at innovative mindset podcast, [00:22:00] all one word.
[00:22:01] And DM me that you to let me know that you did it because you listened to this episode, we'll get a sticker of the first 20 people. One person is going to get all six books and a PDF of the next one that will come out. This autumn of my stuff, and three people. We'll get, can you tell I'm making some of this up because I can't read the words that I wrote. You'll get a book of your choice for my catalog. So if you go to his old, a t.com and you go to about, and then books, you'll be able to see the six books.
[00:22:45] And if you. If you're there and you're in the top 20 and you've DMD me, I'm going to choose someone at random from all the people who follow. And it, you don't have to be in the top 20 to win the, the second prize or the first prize, [00:23:00] but the first top 20 who follow and tell me that they followed will absolutely get a sticker that you can put on your computer or on your coffee cup or wherever, because they're waterproof and you can put them in the dishwasher.
[00:23:10] It's really cool. And. Of all the people who follow in DME that they've, that they have followed the Instagram account. You'll get, I'm going to choose three people who get one book out of the catalog and you can choose your book. When I let you know you've won. And in one person I'm going to choose is going to get all six plus the PDF of the new one.
[00:23:32] When it comes out in. Hopefully around the holiday season in December. Okay. That was a long and involved way of saying, I didn't quite think this through as well as I could have. Huh. All right. Cool. So here we are. We are at the end of the 400th episode last week was Mike cam. Who's a personal branding expert.
[00:23:53] He joined me on the show and next week is Chris Niemeyer who. He's an interesting [00:24:00] man who is taking, he's decided that his goal in his life is to spend more time with his family. So he's developed some strategies and ideas on how to make income so that he has time to spend time with his family. That is his goal.
[00:24:15] And one of the things that's really cool is that that applies equally. Well, if you want to be an activist, if you want to be an artist, if you want to do all of these things, however you want to do it, the ideas that he talks about. We'll work. If you want to spend time with your family, if you want to make great art, if you want to be an activist with the SPCA or the sea shepherd conservation society or wherever it is, you want to put your energies.
[00:24:40] If what you want to do is make money in one way and do work of your heart in another, or maybe you just love making money. I don't know. Chris will be there to talk you through. How to do it. It's a really cool episode. It made me think in some really interesting ways. And August has incredible guests as well.
[00:25:00] [00:25:00] Evan stern is going to be joining me. Meredith granddad is going to be joining me. Angela angle is going to be joining me, star Hayward. It's going to be amazing and I'm going to be doing just so you know, every month, one episode a month is going to be a solo show. It's going to be me talking to you about how to be.
[00:25:17] Innovator about how to be a creative on a mission so that you can do the things that you want to do in the, in a different and amazing and exciting and inspiring. All righty. I hope you've enjoyed this episode and all of the things that I've learned after 400 episodes of the innovative mindset podcast.
[00:25:37] I am Izolda Trakhtenberg. If you're liking the show, please leave a review. I'd love to hear from you until next time I send you all of my love and I remind you to listen, learn, laugh, and love a whole lot. And as often as possible, be a creative on a mission.
[00:26:01] [00:26:00] Thanks so much for joining me today. I really appreciate you being here. Please subscribe to the podcast if you're new and if you like what you're hearing, please review it and rate it and let other people. And if you'd like to be a sponsor of the show, I'd love to meet you on patrion.com/innovative mindset.
[00:26:18] I also have lots of exclusive goodies to share just with the show supporters there today's episode was produced by Izolda Trakhtenberg in his copyright 2021 as always, please remember. For educational and entertainment purposes, only past performance does not guarantee future results. Although we can always hope until next time, keep living in your innovative mindset.
 
 

Mike Kim, Personal Branding Expert On How To Build Yours So You Can Change The World

Personal Branding Expert, Mike Kim, Discusses His Bestselling Book, You Are The Brand
Mike Kim is a brand strategist for business thought leaders, coaches, and authors who want to create impact with their ideas and get their message heard.
Mike’s refreshing approach has made him a sought-after speaker, online educator, and consultant for top thought leaders. Mike’s clients include New York Times bestselling authors and other experts featured on PBS, TED, CNN, and Fox. Mike has been featured in and written for Inc., Entrepreneur, and The Huffington Post.
Mike is the author of the best-selling book, You Are the Brand: The 8-Step Blueprint to Showcase Your Unique Expertise and Build a Highly Profitable, Personally Fulfilling Business.
He is also the host of the top-rated and ranked podcast, The Brand You Podcast. He has spoken at industry-leading events including Social Media Marketing World, Tribe Conference, and Podcast Movement. He has been a guest on leading podcasts like Smart Passive Income, Marketing Made Simple, and Read to Lead. He lives in Alexandria, VA.
Get the Bestselling You Are The Brand Book (no affiliate on this. I just love the book.)
youarethebrandbook.com
Connect with Mike
Website: mikekim.com
Instagram: @mikekimtv
Facebook: facebook.com/mikekimtv
Twitter: twitter.com/mikekimtv
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikekimtv/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/youarethebrand
Episode Transcript
7-12-21 Mike Kim
[00:00:00] Mike Kim: [00:00:00] This may sound super obvious, but no one really says this is that you can't just go out on eBay or Craigslist and buy a personal brand. You can't buy a Bernay Brown's influence. You can't buy Tony Robbins influence. Even if you were to acquire the rights to their intellectual property and their customer databases, their social media.
[00:00:20] You can't buy it. It, when it comes to this, this, this thing called a personal brand, everyone starts from zero.
[00:00:32] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:00:32] Hi and welcome to the innovative mindset podcast. I'm your host. Izolda Trakhtenberg. On the show. You get my conversations with peak performing thought leaders, creatives, and entrepreneurs. We explore how you can innovate through creativity, compassion, and collaboration. I believe that innovation combined with compassion and creative thinking can save the world and I aim to bring you ways.
[00:00:55] You can do it too. If you're enjoying the show, I'd be super grateful. If you could support it by [00:01:00] buying me a cup of coffee, you can buy me a cup of@buymeacoffee.com slash Izolda tea. And now let's get on with the show.
[00:01:17] Hey there and welcome to the innovative mindset podcast. My name is Izolda Trakhtenberg. I am thrilled that you're here and I'm so happy and thrilled and honored. To bring you this week's guest. Mike Kim is a speaker and marketing strategist, and that is putting it lightly, who specializes in brand strategy and copywriting.
[00:01:34] He's been hired by some of today's most influential thought leaders, brands, including John Maxwell, Donald Miller, Suzanne Evans, and capital. For years, he was the chief marketing officer of a successful multi-million dollar company near New York city. Nowadays, you're going to find him speaking at conferences, looking for the next great place to scuba dive, which I love or sipping a glass of Macallan 15, which I also love all while teaching everything.
[00:01:59] He knows [00:02:00] about branding, entrepreneurship, and life through his hit podcast brand. You Mike, I'm so thrilled that you're here. Thank you so much for being here. Well,
[00:02:08] Mike Kim: [00:02:08] There's is all of the thank you for having me. Uh, it is a pleasure to be here. I hope to add some value to you today and to all of our listeners.
[00:02:15] And I knew you were a good woman of taste Macallan 15 is the way to go. Nothing.
[00:02:22] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:02:22] Yeah, absolutely. It's so smooth. Okay. We could, we could talk a whiskey till the cows come home, but let's not do that. Uh, so talk to me about what's going on with you. You have a brand new book you're first coming out.
[00:02:36] Tomorrow. Talk to me about you are the brand, which I love as the title. What prompted you to write the book?
[00:02:45] Mike Kim: [00:02:45] Well, it's funny. And thank you for allowing me to share a little bit about this. Um, it's funny. Cause I signed a book deal about five years ago. I was supposed to write this book five years ago. My publisher assigned me five years ago and then my, my personal life went sideways, [00:03:00] um, a little bit and I just had no creative energy to write the book.
[00:03:03] And, um, every ear that passed since then, you know, I was kind of getting my bearings in life and in business and all that sort of thing. Um, last year happens, right? The quarantines, the lockdowns and everything, you know, I travel a lot. Um, and of course that came, you know, much to a halt and I thought about it.
[00:03:27] What am I going to do this year? And I had a friend tell me, because I had done a lot of little things. I've built a lot of programs and stuff like that, but I found myself getting a little frustrated cause I was felt like I was a hamster on the, on the wheel running around and he said to me, Hey, um, you do a lot of things.
[00:03:44] You're, you're very busy. You're always kind of moving on the move, but you know, it's really fun to build things, to build things that last a long time. And he's a multiple time bestselling author. And he shared that with me and [00:04:00] said, you know, maybe this is the time you build a book. I mean, you don't have to do it this year, but you know, it's fun to build things, build things that will take in last years.
[00:04:10] And I really took that advice to heart. Hunkered down, call my publisher back, hired a book, coach hired several coaches and just started writing. And I was like, if there's anything I walk out of from this year of being locked down because of the current virus and all that, it's going to be a book. And that's, that is the hard and fast truth of it.
[00:04:32] I mean, I think there are a lot of books that never make it to the light of day because their authors, uh, decide to give up. Um, and I did that for a while, but, um, I was like, this will be the year that I really, really, you know, put this into play and I'm really glad I did. So that's why I wrote it.
[00:04:50] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:04:50] Oh, that's fantastic.
[00:04:51] I love it. And here, here, there so much of what you just said made me go high. I have to ask all these questions in here. The, the, the [00:05:00] one that sticks in my head though, is. There is this, this notion that we can, that we can do something, but then there's the imposter that goes, you really can't do this. You, you know, the little voice inside your head, that's tap, dancing and telling you not to.
[00:05:17] And it sounds like you had some strategies that allowed you to go, you know what? No, I I've gone through all sorts of infernos and now I'm coming out the other side and I'm going to do that. Did you have a voice inside your head? And if so, what did that voice.
[00:05:32] Mike Kim: [00:05:32] The voice. So the biggest, I, you know, there's a lot there.
[00:05:37] Um, I would say after I finished the book, uh, but I don't think it was a joke. I was like, this is like the third hardest thing I've ever done in my life. And partially it was because I was writing about a time in my life that was really difficult to revisit. Um, my life turned out very different than I thought it would all those years ago when I first signed this book.
[00:05:59] Um, [00:06:00] secondly, my writing style changed over the years because I had been a blogger. I had written stories and you know, a lot of that stuff, but the last five, six years I've really spent more as a copywriter in the marketing space, which is to make sales. And when I sat down to write this book, It was a completely different discipline of writing.
[00:06:24] Actually, one of my friends, Karen Anderson, who was, who served as a book coach for me through the process. She's like, she's known me for a long time. She said, Hey, your book has no heart in it. She's like, it's got great facts. The frameworks. It's got great information, but I need some more of your personality in this, right?
[00:06:44] The warmth that is, you know, who you are. I need the humor. I need a little bit more story, you know, to contextualize it. In the, in the entire book really is about that journey. From how I reinvented myself, I had walked away from a [00:07:00] pretty established career, stepped into a new career, got a job as the chief marketing officer, as you mentioned for that company.
[00:07:06] And then within two years, I left to start my own business. So really that three to four year period of my life was very turbulent. I look back on it now and just like, I don't know how I survived that or what I did. When I look back on what I intuitively did. The good things that I did. That's what made it into the book.
[00:07:26] And all these years, since I've tested these frameworks, tested how to coach people in building a personal brand. And I'm actually really glad that the book is coming out now because it is, you know, two grades better than what it would have been five years ago. Um, and you can't mess with the timing. I mean, just in the last year and a half, we've all experienced this locked down and shut down and.
[00:07:50] People are really rethinking work. They're working from home a lot more, and it is the perfect time for this book to come out. So I'm very, very grateful [00:08:00] for all those things. But yeah, there were definitely voices that were like, this is a pain. I hate this. This is like slogging through mud. And I just kept on putting one foot in front of the other and doing it.
[00:08:09] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:08:09] And you know, it's funny that you say that, that the voices were saying, this is a pain you're going through molasses when you're in the stew, when you're in it. And you're, and you're just like, I just have to put one foot in front of the other. Do you have any practices, anything that you do that goes, okay, I'm going to get my head back in the game.
[00:08:28] I'm going to get myself right to do this, or is it just survive at all costs for
[00:08:32] Mike Kim: [00:08:32] you? Hmm. Well, one of the things that I really did was, um, stop trying to do it the right way because. When I have all these friends who are authors and they're like, oh yeah, I use this Scrivener program. It's like some software program that people write books in.
[00:08:50] Right. And I'm like, okay, fine. I'll use that. Oh yeah. It makes it so easy. And I'm like sitting there on my computer is old and I'm like, I don't know how to use this program. I've never used this before. My job is [00:09:00] not to learn how to use using your program is to write a book. Right. So I stopped doing that.
[00:09:04] Then I was like, okay, well I just got to tough it out, but in seat, that's what I heard all the time. BIS, but in C. Get just start writing and then I'd sit down at my computer and I wouldn't write. And I realized it's because I was on my computer all day because the zoom calls. So I hated sitting. On like sitting at my computer, it just, it just drove me crazy.
[00:09:26] Right. So then I try to write in, in bed with my laptop and that wasn't good either. Cause I was like, okay, this time. So this is, this is crazy. What I actually did was I took everything out of these, you know, godforsaken programs. Everyone was telling me, you use dumped everything into Google docs and just started writing the book on my phone.
[00:09:45] And I would chip away at it. I, I, once I live in Virginia, just outside of Washington, DC right now, and as soon as a couple of places opened back up, you know, bars, restaurants, whatnot, I would go out, I would call an [00:10:00] Uber. I would clack away on my phone and in Google docs in the 20, 30 minutes in the Uber sit down at the bar.
[00:10:09] And just collect oil on my phone. And I just chipped away at this thing over the course of like probably nine or 10 months and just kept refining, kept refining, getting, setting it into the editor, getting feedback, you know, refining, refining, refining. And that was really the first and most important thing I had to find out what worked for me and be okay with that.
[00:10:33] The second thing I think I really had to do, um, to, to push through that was to, um, create deadlines that I definitely had to stick with. Like I told the publisher, here's the release date I want. I went ahead and had the meeting with the publishers and the, okay. We've all decided it's going to come out July 13th.
[00:10:52] Right. I'm like, sure. And I mean, every step of the way, they're like, we cannot print your book. If you don't get this in, by this day. [00:11:00] And those self-imposed deadlines are actually how I work whenever. And this is just how I've worked in business. Anytime that I've really needed to get something done, I've made promises to other people that have it'll be done.
[00:11:13] And that has forced me. To take action. Those deadlines have driven action. Um, I'm very grateful to my publisher Morgan James fellowship. They were very patient with me, you know, um, in a lot of ways, uh, I was picky about the artwork. I was picky about the typeface in the book and all that, but all this is.
[00:11:35] It's a journey as a creative, it's a journey as a leader, it's a journey as a journey in self-expression, um, to really understand yourself more. I feel so much better equipped if I ever write another book again, which I probably will, but I've learned a lot about myself through this process.
[00:11:54] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:11:54] I'm taking all that in for a second, because there was so much in what you just said.
[00:11:58] It's so [00:12:00] I love, love, love, love, love that you said that how much you learned about yourself as part of writing the book and, and it, and it's funny to me that you said that it took patients on the part of your publisher because you were picky about things and I'm like, well, I've written six books. By gum, you better be picky.
[00:12:17] It's your baby, you know, and believe me when you hold it for the first time, it's going to be amazing. I wrote this, but, but yet this, this notion of learning a lot about myself, I CA I keep, you know, this is the innovative mindset podcast. So I keep coming back to that. What, what did you learn? What was the thing that changed from, from before you wrote the book to when.
[00:12:41] Gave it to the publisher and said it's finished. What was, what was the transformation inside you?
[00:12:47] Mike Kim: [00:12:47] I think the biggest thing for me with that was, um, understanding this is a little bit more out there. Um, When quarantines [00:13:00] first happened, bend, it really slowed my life down. Like it did for a lot of other people.
[00:13:05] And I thought I had this dream one day, or like, I don't know, just, just one of these meditative experiences about what I really wanted to do with my life. And I realized, I was like, I don't know that I'm doing it yet. Or maybe that changes who knows. Right. And I said to myself, what do. Will really live on after I'm gone.
[00:13:29] And again, this is framed by what my friend Jeff told me, you know, it's fun to build things, build things that lasts. And as I was writing this book, I realized, you know what, my nephews are going to read this. They're going to read this if they want to, it'll be there. You know, even after I'm long gone, you know, they're five years old and three years old right now.
[00:13:48] And, uh, When I had that kind of experience that this little dream thing, you know, one of those in between waking and sleeping moments, I was like, I just want to write stories. I [00:14:00] just want to tell stories. Stories are what live on. We live. We read stories from hundreds of years ago that were written thousands of years ago.
[00:14:06] These stories have been written and we still repurpose and reinterpret and re-express them today. So while I love marketing and I love business coaching, I, I felt very strongly what I really wanted to do later on tap back into telling stories in writing. The book has opened up or reignited part of my creative muscle to, to write, to just write for the sake of, uh, sharing my thoughts, sharing my, um, feeling feelings, but also holding space and creating space for other people.
[00:14:43] So, right. Um, not too long ago, um, back in March, when, you know, there were a lot of crazy events going on in the county. And there was a shooting in Atlanta of many Korean women. Um, working out this massage probably really impacted [00:15:00] me because I was like these women, like my mom's age, you know, there's a lot of anti-Asian hate going on.
[00:15:05] And I wrote an article it's old, it's just on my blog and it went viral thousands and thousands, and thousands of people read this. And, um, the feedback I got was just as, if not more fulfilling, Than the feedback I got from my clients. Hey, thanks for helping me discover my voice or giving me clarity on my marketing strategy.
[00:15:29] But I realized with just a few strokes on the keyboard, I could really create space and hold space for people. Or for the world at large. And I, I don't know what that looks like yet. Right. I've just published the book comes out tomorrow. Right. But, um, and I'm not in a rush to leave the business and marketing space, but I'm starting to get an inkling of what I might want to do in the next phase of my life.
[00:15:53] And that's been really funny. I don't think it would have happened. Had it not been for writing this [00:16:00] book.
[00:16:03] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:16:03] I, I love the notion that it's opening, opening that part of you almost up again. You're such a creative person in all ways that I've seen, you know, you're one of my teachers I've learned so much from you and, and yet, uh, and not yet, but, and also. Having having, uh, learning something like marketing and business from someone who is a creative, like you is so fulfilling and inspiring.
[00:16:31] And at the same time, this is a strange question because we who are in sort of the entrepreneur space, forget that most people aren't in it. Right. But if you want to further a cause or a business, it seems. It's a great idea to, to, to build that brand. And so I guess the question is how much do you think your personal brand, you might, Kim, your personal brand will, uh, help your [00:17:00] efforts in that next phase?
[00:17:01] Whenever that comes you, you may not be in a hurry to leave the personal brand business, but when that next phase comes, how much of what you've built already? We'll help you move forward.
[00:17:13] Mike Kim: [00:17:13] Okay. I think it helps a lot. And this is one of the concepts that I cover in the book. Um, the path of the personal brand, right.
[00:17:21] And, um, one of the most unique and challenging things about building a business around my self. You know, w which I've done and you've done. Um, certainly as well. Uh, we hear this phrase personal brand thrown out around a lot. And, um, my best attempt to define what a personal brand is, is basically a public identity you've crafted for an express purpose.
[00:17:43] Right. Um, and it's a confluence of your ideas, your expertise, your reputation, and your personality. That's, that's an identity, all those things in one. And the funny thing that I've seen in this space, And this may sound super obvious, but no one really says this is that you can't just go out [00:18:00] on eBay or Craigslist and buy.
[00:18:02] A personal brand, you can't buy a Bernay Brown's influence. You can't buy Tony Robbins influence. Even if you were to acquire the rights to their intellectual property and their customer databases, their social media accounts, you can't buy it when it comes to this, this, this thing called a personal brand.
[00:18:23] Everyone starts from zero. So. Um, when people talk about starting a brand or they, they ask me, you know, how should I start, um, building a brand, um, I asked a lot of them, well, what do you want it to do for you? And they, they often say, this is all they said, well, I want to do whatever I want. And they want to like live in this magical place, which I've since dubbed the land of whatever I want.
[00:18:49] And they'll say things like, oh, look at the rock, Dwayne Johnson, you or Oprah, or Carrie Vaynerchuk or Joe Rogan. They can make money doing anything they want. And [00:19:00] what most people don't understand is that there is a path to a place of that kind of influence. That these folks have reached, but it requires that you walk through this really lonely place that I call the valley of focus.
[00:19:13] So I can, I can jump into this if that's cool, because I think this will be fun for us to talk about. So, um, you know, let's say you start your journey, you write blog posts, you share some inspirational quotes on social media. You start a new podcast. And unfortunately it doesn't really feel like anyone's listening and this is totally.
[00:19:30] Right. Your friends, your family, your colleagues. They're a bit confused by what you're doing in some even stuff following you online, because they're like, what is Mike doing? What is this all to doing? And you feel more alone than ever. And, uh, great news. You're now in the valley of focus and in this valley of focus, you whittle down all of your random ideas.
[00:19:51] To focus on one topic, one idea or one market, and you decide, you know, whether you're going to specialize in, you know, helping [00:20:00] people get healthy or you'll make more money or build better relationships. You narrow your focus even further to, to determine what you're going to do in that particular market marketing is a big market, right?
[00:20:10] So I had to like narrow that down and say, I'm going to help people with personal branding and copywriting writing their words. And you start to slowly understand much like a nightclub or dance club. You can't play five different types of music and expect like everyone to come to your place. Right. They just don't mix.
[00:20:29] You have to have clarity. So I experienced this when I started in business and marketing, probably 90% of the people who follow me just start. Right. A few of them followed me. Um, as I stepped out into this venture, um, but what happens is when you stay focused and you get more narrowed down, um, you become known for a few things and then just eventually, you know, one or two things, but strangely enough, this attracts other influential [00:21:00] people to you who have followings of their own.
[00:21:03] And because of that clarity, they may hire you. They may give you a platform. They meet you. Opportunity to speak to their audience about your area of expertise and lo and behold, a bunch of their followers just start following you. Right? And then some other influential person who sees that influential person.
[00:21:19] Number one, connected with you, asks you to speak to their audience and boom, the phenomenon happens all over again, and you're starting to gain an audience, build an audience or gain followers rapidly, much more. And your, your story of becoming this rising star and over time. And this is where I feel like I'm starting to step into over time.
[00:21:41] Over many years, your audience keeps following you. Not just because of what you know, but because you have who you are, you're not just building a brand, you're becoming your brand. That's the message of the book. You are the brand, right? Because of all this focus, your work [00:22:00] improves, your expertise becomes established and some of your biggest fans become super fans.
[00:22:05] If you will, who will gladly follow you into any of your future pursuits? And if you have enough of these people, they will help you reach the land of whatever I want and stay there. Now I've seen this play out. In front of my very eyes with the rock, Dwayne Johnson. When I was in college, I loved this guy.
[00:22:26] He was a wrestler, right? Does that today? Everyone knows him as one of the world's biggest action stars are used to all these movies, but yeah, professional wrestling for like 15 years was his valley of focus. And he didn't even really want to become a wrestler. He played college football and wanted to make the NFL and he didn't make.
[00:22:45] Right. So this dude pivots into wrestling stays the course. Most people don't realize this either. They don't know this fans hated the rock. When he was first a wrestler, they boot him out of the building. They hated him, right. [00:23:00] They just thought he was so cheesy. He thought their character, the character was stupid and he just kept with it.
[00:23:06] And the WWE, you know, his company started reform as I did. And just starting to get really popular. And at the height of his popularity, when I was in college, I remember this, um, he started to make some movies and he was just so good. He was so charismatic. He was so entertaining. He started to leave, uh, wrestling at times to go shoot these movies.
[00:23:28] And what happened is the wrestling fans felt like he sold out. And not all of them were thrilled. He was acting so they just stopped following him. They started booing him when he'd come back to wrestling, even though he's one of the most popular people in the company. And yet enough people, enough people like me watched his movies.
[00:23:49] I was a fan of him as a wrestler enough people like me watch this movie. And now I still follow him on social media. I probably have bought [00:24:00] under armor, you know, workout gear because he endorses it. Right. And he can do whatever he wants, the workout gear, the athletic apparel, Lisa, oddly enough, he sells tequila that doesn't really seem on brand for a guy who, you know, works out all the time.
[00:24:16] You're drinking tequila, you know, but he could do whatever he wants, but people don't realize. Oh, my gosh, the guy labored for 15, 20 years as a wrestler, he had to deal with the heartache of not making the NFL. This is not somebody who just said, I'm going to just talk about everything and whatever I want and people are going to follow me.
[00:24:36] So all, all of this, just kind of tying a bow on this. Do I feel like my personal brand will help me in future endeavors? Absolutely. I'm not as popular as a rock, but I do believe that there are some people who have said, Mike, we just like you, we just like what you do. We'd like what you stand for. And I'm curious to see where you're going to go and I'm going to follow.
[00:24:58] And because of [00:25:00] that, um, I feel this amount of freedom, I feel a certain amount of freedom and Liberty to go explore these new things.
[00:25:10] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:25:10] First of all. I'm so glad that you talked about the rock because it's a lot of what you said. It really resonates with me because what I, I, I follow him also. And it's not just because he's charismatic.
[00:25:20] It's because he's welcoming. If you see what I mean, like he's doing his thing and I know there are millions of fans and it's not like, I feel like he is. Talking directly to me, except for, I kind of do. And, you know, and, and I think for him, it's probably on, on many levels, it's authentic, but also it's very practical, right?
[00:25:41] It's a very practical, this is who I am, and this is what I stand for. And he kind of. Set all the dominoes up and knocked all the dominoes down. And that's one of the things I really respect about you is that you are, in addition to being creative, you're very practical. You break things down [00:26:00] in, in the work that I followed with you in the classes I've taken with you in, in a very, um, and I hate the word actionable because it's a weird word, but it's really true.
[00:26:09] If I take action on the things that you recommend, things open up. Right? So, so. What, if you can talk about that a little bit, how do you reconcile or combined the very creative parts of who you are with that very practical part of you?
[00:26:27] Mike Kim: [00:26:27] Yeah, I think it, you know, it, that's a great question. I think I have always felt more of a bias towards action.
[00:26:36] Um, when I've taken various self-assessment, you know, tests and stuff like that, uh, StrengthsFinders was one of them. Uh, I dunno, how many of you listening may have heard of strength finders? Um, but with StrengthsFinder number one was maximizer. Um, which means that I don't like to start things completely from scratch.
[00:26:56] I like to take good things and make them. [00:27:00] And I'm like, oh, no wonder I'm a consultant. Right. And then number two was, um, implement. Which means I just go do things. I, I overthink every other area of my life except for creativity and business. I mean, I'm like, I'm like, I want it done yesterday. I just go do it.
[00:27:20] Um, it's probably why I work really long hours and get stressed out and stuff because I have more ideas than I can ever execute on. Right. And I have realized that I don't know if I came up with this phrase or I heard it somewhere, but I like it. Um, we are idea rich and execution. Poor. And this world of social media has made that even more of an anathema, if you will.
[00:27:43] I mean, it is a sickness it's easy to post other people's ideas. It's really hard to go do them. Sure. So, um, when I see other people take a long time to execute on things, I'm just, it just drives me nuts. Right. And I'm like, okay, that's their own pace. That's their own journey. I'm not going to judge them.
[00:27:59] But for [00:28:00] me, um, I, some, sometimes I can't sleep on this. I get it. So I'm like, okay. Uh, I I'm, I'm biased that way, you know, bias towards action. Um, and then the third strength on strength finder was just, it was just a strategic oversight. Like I just see the big picture. I'm always a big picture person. So I'm very bad with little details.
[00:28:22] Um, it's why I have an assistant that handles these things, right. I'm just like, I have this idea. I want to see this happen. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And sometimes I, I am my own worst enemy because I know how to do too many things. And so I execute very quickly or I can't wait to get things executed, which makes me a very poor delegate.
[00:28:41] Hmm. So I've learned all these things about my workflow in my work life and how I made, and I've realized that that has had to force me as a leader to grow in other areas. I have to become a better leader. I have to become a more patient person. I have to become [00:29:00] more of a visionary and less of a hands-on person.
[00:29:02] These are all really big areas I have to grow in. You know, we're here, we're talking about the innovative mindset, right? I have to innovate those parts of my life. Otherwise I will relegate myself to living like this until I'm dead. Um, so it's either changed. And grow and, and, and work with people and work with teams or do this for the rest of my life.
[00:29:25] And it is what it is. And there's no wrong answer. That's the other thing, um, that I've really realized there's no wrong answer. I know a lot of people who are like me, and this is what they want. That is how they want to live. They don't want a big team. They don't want an administrator. They don't want people on payroll.
[00:29:44] They're okay with doing that. Right. And then there are other people who, who have made that shift and both are valuable. Both are building their business and their life around the kind of life and business they want. Um, so really I'm at that [00:30:00] crossroads where it's like, I'm a creative, but I'm also like very, very wired to take action.
[00:30:05] And the more and more self-aware I become, I see options laid out on the table for me. It's like, okay, which path am I going to go down? I have to decide. And that's really, that's really how I see it.
[00:30:19] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:30:19] And it's lovely that it's about self-awareness, you know, so much of this. Is knowing who you are and knowing what you can offer.
[00:30:28] And I, and I, I I'm, I'm grateful that you, that you talked about that because I think that's what the book is going to do on a much larger scale for you is it's going to take that particular message and, and amplify it. Uh, and so I'm, I'm really grateful. I want to say that. Because it comes out tomorrow and you should all go get it.
[00:30:48] It's you are the brand, the eighth step blueprint to showcase your unique expertise and build a highly profitable business. So if you are interested in learning how to do that, you need to go get this book. [00:31:00] That's just how it is Mike. I'm. I, I could keep you for the next six hours, but I know you have a life to get back to.
[00:31:06] So I will ask you the one question you might remember this, you might not that I ask everybody who comes on the show. And before I do that, I will, I will say thank you again for joining me. This was so fabulous and wonderful to get to talk to you about your book and about where you are and where you're going.
[00:31:24] The question is this. If you had an airplane that could sky write anything for the whole world to see, what would you say?
[00:31:32] Mike Kim: [00:31:32] Oh, yeah, I remember this question. Okay. Um, you know what I've got to say, you are the brand. Um, and, and it's not just because of the book, but it's really the charge that I want to lay out, you know, to my readers, to my friends, to my colleagues, um, there we all, we all have a brand.
[00:31:54] Um, we all have a reputation, you know, personal branding. This phrases become, you know, this. [00:32:00] Popular term now. Um, but it's just, it's just your reputation. It's just what people think of you. It's just the identity that you hold in in the, in the minds and hearts of people who know you. And, um, I think one of the things I've learned about life through my work is that entrepreneurship thinking outside the box, it has a way of bringing out the best parts.
[00:32:26] And also revealing some of your roughest edges and in a world of image and social media followers. My message really is, you know, be someone worth following, be that truly be who you're trying to sell to people, whether it's, you know, through an Instagram account for fun or trying to land a new job or, or trying to start your business, like you are the brand, don't just build a brand.
[00:32:53] Be the brand you that that's who you are. And it's a call for us to, to grow and mature and to be the [00:33:00] best version of ourselves. So that's what I would write across the sky. And it's not just because the book's out tomorrow.
[00:33:06] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:33:06] No, but I w you know what? I think that's great. And it's a call to be. Your authentic self, which is, which is the best way to be, because there's so much that we have to fair it through that isn't authentic and real, and you're calling for us to be real.
[00:33:22] And I think that's great, Mike, thank you again so much for being here and being so generous with your wisdom and your knowledge. I appreciate it very much.
[00:33:31] Mike Kim: [00:33:31] It was a pleasure to be here. And thank you for, uh, sharing me with, with everybody here today and sharing your platform and salt. I've really, really appreciate it.
[00:33:38] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:33:38] My absolute pleasure. This is Izolda Trakhtenberg for the innovative mindset podcast. If you want to find Mike Kim, you can go to Mike kim.com. You can learn all about him. You can learn all about the book. You can get the book, you should get the book because obviously he knows. Stuff until next time. This is Izolda Trakhtenberg for the innovative mindset [00:34:00] podcast, reminding you to listen, learn, laugh, and love a whole lot.
[00:34:10] Thanks so much for joining me today. I really appreciate you being here. Please subscribe to the podcast if you're new and if you like what you're hearing, please review it and rate it and let other people know. And if you'd like to be a sponsor of the show, I'd love to meet you. On patrion.com/innovative mindset.
[00:34:28] I also have lots of exclusive goodies to share just with the show supporters there today's episode was produced by Izolda Trakhtenberg in his copyright 2021 as always. Please remember, this is for educational and entertainment purposes. Only past performance does not guarantee future results, although we can always hope until next time, keep living in your innovative mindset.
 

Biblical Scholar, Adam Stokes, on How Ancient Stories Can Help Us Navigate Today

Adam Stokes Discusses Lessons We Can Take From Ancient Myths and Stories
Adam Oliver Stokes holds degrees in religion from Duke University and Yale Divinity School. He has published on a variety of topics including biblical studies, Mormon studies, Classical studies, and ancient American history. He is the author of three books- From Egypt to Ohio: A Semitic Origin for the Giants of North America, Perspectives on the Old Testament, and The Latin Scrolls: Selections from the Five Megilloth taken from the Latin Vulgate. He currently teaches Latin at Penns Grove High School in New Jersey and lives in Edgewater Park, New Jersey with his wife and two sons.
Connect with Adam
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/adamthegiantguy2019/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/linguaclassica
Episode Transcript
7-5-21 Adam Stokes
[00:00:00] Adam Stokes: [00:00:00] I think that that is amazing. Lesson four for today, as we look at the state of the world and we're always wanting to, you know, get more power, get, get more attention, get more fame, but look at what that cost and look how it hurts the people around you. And I think that goes back to looking at, you know, how the, the women in these, in these plays are portray criminal Astra and yeah.
[00:00:25] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:00:25] Hi, and welcome to the innovative mindset podcast. I'm your host. Izolda Trakhtenberg. On the show. You get my conversations with peak performing thought leaders, creatives, and entrepreneurs. We explore how you can innovate through creativity, compassion, and collaboration. I believe that innovation combined with compassion and creative thinking can save the world and I aim to bring you ways.
[00:00:48] You can do it too. If you're enjoying the show, I'd be super grateful. If you could support it by buying me a cup of coffee, you can buy me a cup@buymeacoffee.com slash Izolda tea. And now [00:01:00] let's get on with the show.
[00:01:09] Hey there and welcome to the innovative mindset podcast. I'm your host. Izolda Trakhtenberg, I'm super happy that you're here and I'm really honored and happy to have today's guest on the show. Check this out. And you will know that that my inner Greek mythology nerd is going to be so super happy to talk to this.
[00:01:26] Gentlemen, Adam Oliver Stokes holds degrees in religion from duke university and Yale divinity school. He has published on a variety of topics, including biblical studies, Mormon studies, classical studies and ancient American history. He's the author of three books from Egypt to Ohio, a submitted origin for the giants of north America.
[00:01:46] Can't wait to talk about that one perspectives on the old Testament and the Latin scrolls selections from the five Meggie LOTE taken from the Latin Vulgate. He currently teaches Latin at Penns Grove high school in New Jersey and lives in Edgewater park, New Jersey with [00:02:00] his wife and two sons. How exciting is this going to be Adam?
[00:02:03] Thank you so much for being here. Welcome.
[00:02:05] Adam Stokes: [00:02:05] Great to be here as always. Thank you for that. Oh, it's my
[00:02:07] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:02:07] pleasure. I'm I'm so excited to talk to you in part, because just let's just jump on in what got you started. I know what got me started reading both inches mythology when I was nine years old. What got you started?
[00:02:22] What fascinated you about this, these ancient cultures and civilizations that you decided to make it your life's work?
[00:02:30] Adam Stokes: [00:02:30] Yeah, well, I think it goes way back to my seventh grade Latin teacher, Mr. Butoh. My parents, my mom forced me to take Latin. I went in kicking and screaming. My dad thought it was kind of a pointless class to take.
[00:02:43] He thought it was, you know, a dead language. But into about a week or so of the class, this was my goodness is older. This is about almost 30 years ago. Into about a week into the class I was hooked. And the reason I was hooked is that Mr. Butoh was kind [00:03:00] of an unconventional Latin teacher. I'm not saying, I mean, he knew his stuff left and right.
[00:03:05]Definitely one of the finest linguist I've ever I've ever encountered in my life. But he made it interesting for us. There's a way to teach Latin where it can be really boring and just really dry. And he just, how can I say it? He spiced it up. He brought in a lot of Roman history. He brought in a lot of mythology and I think at the time I was in middle school going into high school.
[00:03:29]I was kind of a nerd. I was kind of one of the awkward kids didn't really quite fit in. So the ancient world was kind of my escape and I just, I just fell in love with it. Basically from, from the first time I started. Engage in it. And I knew that in college, I wanted my trajectory to be my trajectory, to be towards looking at our ancient civilizations.
[00:03:54] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:03:54] I love that a teacher inspired you to this because yeah, there are a lot of people who think [00:04:00] Latin is a dead language, but it's the root of so many languages that knowing it can only be of benefit. So let me ask you a question. You're you teach Latin, do you spice it up for your students? And if so, what is it that you do?
[00:04:14] Adam Stokes: [00:04:14] Oh, yes. Oh yes. Well my school, I love, I absolutely love the school that I teach at Pence Grove to give you some of the demographics about that school. About 40% of that school is of the school I teach at is made up of Latino students, let you know, and Latino students. So they come in with Spanish and it's really cool because I can hook them early on and say, you know, Spanish comes to.
[00:04:37]From Latin. So I bring in a lot of, a lot of my focus is looking at the ways that Spanish intersects with Latin. What words are exactly the same as in Spanish, as they are in Latin. So for example to geek out here the second person singular too, is the same in Spanish. As it is in Latin. But I also do a lot of what Mr.
[00:04:58] Beto did as well. We [00:05:00] were always, in fact, sometimes we do more Roman history and Greek mythology than translation of text themselves. So we've looked at basically everything from the Iliad to the Odyssey. We've looked at the various Roman emperors. I really liked the bad emperors, the naughty emperors the ones who, oh, gosh well, there's a bunch of them, but I'll S I'll say we focus a lot on calendula.
[00:05:23] We also focus on narrow. So those were the bad guys, my favorite emperor. He wasn't actually bad, but I always highlight him and we must spend about a month on this guy is the emperor Claudius. And the reason that I do that is because Claudius likely. There was a whole mini series of him with my favorite actor who I would gladly divorce my wife or married their dare Jakoby.
[00:05:48]Sarah  whom I absolutely love. But also we know from sources that Claudia has had some type of disability that he was possibly autistic or [00:06:00] something like that. And so I have some students who are dealing with disabilities themselves. So I always point to him and students always seem to appreciate this.
[00:06:08] And I pointed him and say, you know, this was a guy who inspired his disability rose to be. The emperor, the ruler of the known world at the time. And he's just a fascinating figure, not only for himself, but the way that he intersects with all these different other figures in history curricula Herod Agrippa in in Jewish history Tiberias.
[00:06:30]Augustus he intersects with basically all the grades. So we do a lot of stuff with the emperors. I actually have like an emperor battle that they have to do. They have to argue effectively. So get into little small groups and they have to argue effectively, which emperor was the worst. So there'll be a Nero or Caligula and you have to give the reasons why, or they'll even, this is a project I'm going to have them do in the upcoming months.
[00:06:54]They will choose an emperor and kind of have to do a campaign for that emperor. So if you want to get this emperor [00:07:00] elected, if you want it to get him voted into office which of course didn't happen in the Roman world. The is just where we're chosen to be emperor or from their lineage. But if you were, if it was modern times and you were trying to get, you know, narrow elected what could you do to get him?
[00:07:14]What would you say about him? How would you depict him to get elected? So there's campaign slogans and all that stuff. Now
[00:07:20] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:07:20] is this all.
[00:07:21] Adam Stokes: [00:07:21] So most of it is, yes. So they'll so a lot of their projects still basically write out a slogan in Latin. So or write out a description in Latin.
[00:07:30] So they'll trans don't write out something in English, translate into Latin and then use that as a template.
[00:07:38] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:07:38] That's so incredible. And I love that you do that, that you get them so engaged and involved and not just sitting down, which I think is phenomenal because often just sitting down for a long time, no matter what you're studying is going to be tougher on a student than, than getting up and actually doing and having a campaign.
[00:07:56] So what is the best slogan someone's ever come up with for one of the [00:08:00] emperors?
[00:08:01] Adam Stokes: [00:08:01] I think so I did a similar project at the school I taught at earlier, before I came to Penn strobe and I think the best one was. At least this emperor won't feed you to the lions. So I think it was a tighter surface space Sheehan and comparing him to Nero.
[00:08:18]I think they were, they were the two emperors up for election. And yeah, I think that, that one, I always get a kick out of. So, you know, it can't be as bad as getting fled to the lions.
[00:08:28] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:08:28] That's actually probably true. So let me it's I love, I love what you do as a teacher, but you're also an author and you, you write and you publish works.
[00:08:41] And I know that this is, this is going to sound a little weird, but when, when you're doing this, when you're, when you're writing, you're writing for a modern audience writing for a contemporary 20, 21 audience, and you're writing about these things that happened thousands of years [00:09:00] ago, perhaps even longer, how do you make.
[00:09:07] How do you make it relevant to the audience of 2021? And what lessons can we, as your readers learn to take into our future from, from these ancient civilizations in ancient stories?
[00:09:21] Adam Stokes: [00:09:21] That's, that's a great question. And that's something that is always, like you said, a challenge for anybody trying to, you know, convey ancient history to modern readers.
[00:09:31]I've read so many not to knock other textbooks, but especially within biblical studies and old Testament, there's so many textbooks that just give dry explanations of things. So. You'll read a textbook and they'll say, these are the books of the Hebrew Bible. This is their content, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
[00:09:48] But it doesn't really talk about, you know, how this stuff is relevant today. And even though the Bible was written thousands of years ago for one it is, you know, a text that is still accepted as scripture by [00:10:00] large groups of people today, Jews and Christians. And also I think just because it was the primary Western document for so long, it continues to have affects both good and bad for, for our culture and for our society.
[00:10:14]And so one of the challenges and one of the things that I try to do in writing both perspectives of the old Testament and the Latin scrolls was to show the, how the Bible or at least how people, how pop culture is understood. The Bible still has implications for issues that we, that we do.
[00:10:34]Today. So in my perspective, the old Testament book there's an article in there about the treatment of Israelites towards foreigners. And I tied that article directly into the current discussion about immigration and treatment of foreigners here in America. When at a time when there is, there is increased us, you know, phobia My other book, the Latin scrolls actually, and I was advised to do this by [00:11:00] my editor and I think it was a great idea is older.
[00:11:03]I was advised to put a section at the end of each of the megillah each of the scrolls that I translated what is the relevance of this scroll for today? So at the end of each of the translations, there is discussion about, you know, the contemporary relevance of, of the content in each of the scrolls.
[00:11:23]So for example the scroll to the book of Esther I say, well, Esther was this average person who suddenly got skyrocketed, you know, to, to the, the highest. The highest status in society. She selling, we stressed into the court of the most powerful people in the world. What happens when this happens to you?
[00:11:46] And I gave an example from my own life. I actually, when I was at duke just a little known me from, from Baltimore five foot two, actually got in the same class with the prince of Jordan and actually became friends with him. And so [00:12:00] I started that as an example. You know, what do you do when you basically you encounter a situation where you're suddenly thrust amongst very powerful people.
[00:12:11]What ways might you know, you use this, not only to your own benefit, not to sound selfish, but also to the benefit of others as Esther does. So I try to raise questions like that. Song of songs, for example, another one of the Meggie load what does it say about sexuality? You know, we think of, we think of sex and, you know, we think of something, you know, that is, I think he's still in, still in the modern west.
[00:12:35] Due to the influence of, of Christianity for so long, we think of sex as something that you know, is, is taboo. But you know what the song a song say about, you know, sexist is a very healthy sexual relationship. How might this be relevant? How might this differ from, you know, talking to my college students, many of whom come from Catholic strong Catholic backgrounds, how might this differ from what you've heard?
[00:12:57] How might this be a positive way of understanding, [00:13:00] you know, sexuality? So I do bring that stuff in. I, I bring that stuff in, try to bring it in quite often. And it makes the class much more interesting. Some of the reflection papers I get from students, some of the ways that they answer these are really are really, really profound.
[00:13:13] And they, they stick with me just as much as I hope my class sticks with them.
[00:13:19] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:13:19] It's so interesting to me, how often as a teacher, you learn from your students almost as much as they learn
[00:13:25] Adam Stokes: [00:13:25] from you.
[00:13:28] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:13:28] So when you're in that, when you're in that state and you're looking at something, a document like the old Testament, and you see some things that the song of songs is a great example of something that, that we can really learn from.
[00:13:43] And that can be of benefit of increasing kindness and tolerance towards people who are not the same as you especially, and also immigration was xenophobia. And yet there are times when you look at something like the Bible and you go really, you believe that, you know, don't eat crustaceans [00:14:00] or, or don't mix your fabrics or whatever.
[00:14:02] So how do we, as modern people incorporate that into our viewpoint of a document, like the old Testament, because some of it frankly, is, is just so jarring. Like don't, you know, W some of the stuff that's, that's pretty violent. And some of the stuff that, that make doesn't make a lot of sense, like donate crustaceans or whatever, or I'm vegan.
[00:14:26] So it's easy for me not to eat crustaceans and not, and not to pigs, but at the same time, how do we do that? How do we reconcile in our own cells when you, when we see such, such guidance and advice that is so. Dated, I'll say.
[00:14:41] Adam Stokes: [00:14:41] Yeah. Yeah. And I always I do a session on the Abraham tradition in the book of Genesis.
[00:14:47] And I always get to that horrible chapter in Genesis 18 where the angels come to Sodom and Gomorrah and lot basically says, you know to the men of the city, you know, I'll just don't do [00:15:00] anything to these male angels, but I'll throw my daughters out of the door to you. So that you can, you can have your way with them.
[00:15:06]So, and that's one of many jarring many jarring scenes in the old Testament. I think the old Testament Hebrew Bible has to be taken like any other historical texts. Now, granted it's had much more of an influence than some other ancient texts have, but I think as I think Jesus would say, you have to kind of separate the wheat from the shaft recognize.
[00:15:28]That, and I think that biblical scholarship having its basis in the European enlightenment and people likes renos, I think it does as well recognize that this is an ancient text written by human beings, that their morals the morals of their time are much different than the morals of our time.
[00:15:44] But there's still stuff that you can wean from this from certain books, Ecclesiastes de Sala songs et cetera that still have value for today and how we interact and how we treat others. So I think excellent [00:16:00] example. I heard a lecture, I can't remember who gave the lecture but it was a woman who does who's a class assist and I'm blanking on her name right now.
[00:16:08] She did a lecture on the Iliad and basically say, you know This basically the mindset of all these guys in the Elliot, just for, you know, blood bloodshed and plunder that you get with Agamemnon and Achilles. And basically all of them, they're all kind of all kinds of credit in that regard.
[00:16:25]But you can also still take away some moral lessons from, from Homer not just the Elliot, but she was talking about the Odyssey as well. And basically, you know, what does it mean to be a virtuous person ever? She looks different for someone like Achilles or Agamemnon, you know 2,500 years ago.
[00:16:45] But I think we can still ask that question as modern people wasn't mean to be virtuous in our time. What does it mean to be known. In our time. And the, the writings of Homer and the other Creek classics bring these questions to mind. Those questions are timeless. Those questions are eternal [00:17:00] and there'll be around long after we aren't.
[00:17:03] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:17:03] Absolutely. I agree with you, the, those questions are timeless. Some of the answers make me cringe, but the questions themselves, you know, all you have to do is look at something like the Oresteia and, and wow. You know, what, what, what happened there was just, you know, wow. So, so when I look at those, when I look at those ancient texts and I look at, you know, oh, you killed my father.
[00:17:25] So now I'm going to kill you and this and that. And the, you know, because he's, he sacrificed the daughter and all of these different things. I look at that. And I go, okay, if quite a Maestra, let's say she was in that she played, she was the wife in the arse Daya, and she heard her husband, the king sacrificed his daughter, all of these things happen.
[00:17:46] And so she was taking revenge, right. She was taking revenge and she also had a lover and all of the it's a very dramatic and exciting and, and bloody story. Oh yes. So, so, but that's, that's what was, [00:18:00] this is, this is going to be a very feminist question. What was the woman's role here? What kind of power did quite a minister have besides doing what she did in that time?
[00:18:11] And how do we, again, as modern people look at these tails and say, okay, this is maybe what quite a master could do. This is what, the path that was open to her or, or the Medea Medea is another great example. What could we do as women. In those times versus what lessons we can learn in modern times from these ancient tales.
[00:18:36] Adam Stokes: [00:18:36] Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, I think that a lot of the Greek tails, especially, I think there's a subliminal message of sympathy for these women, like climb industrial, like Medea in, you know, saying that, you know, they're kind of, they're kind of literally restrained by the culture and the time period that they find themselves in and being married [00:19:00] to these men who have absolute power and are kind of, I think, especially with Agamemnon kind of absolutely narcissists.
[00:19:09] Hmm. You know, what else could they do? So I think this is definitely when you read the, when you read the Greek place, Sophocles Europe, cities, et cetera, there is always an edge of, at least in my, at least how I read them of sympathy for these women. You know, cause I'm an Esther, it's not just this terrible unfaithful, a woman who kills, who kills Agamemnon, who kills her spouse.
[00:19:30] But, you know, look at the context that set this up. And I think a lot of the Greek playwrights are saying, you know, let this be a warning of what absolute power does because Agamemnon he destroyed with, he destroyed a lot of people around him and eventually he destroys himself, his actions destroy himself.
[00:19:47]And every step he takes to try and gain more power, including sacrificing his daughter eventually leads to his downfall. And I think that that is amazing lesson. For, for today, as we look at the state of the [00:20:00] world and we're always, you know, wanting to, you know, get more power, get get more attention, get more fame, but, you know, look at, look at what that cost and look how it hurts the people around you.
[00:20:11] And I think that goes back, you know, to looking at, you know, how the, the women in these, in these plays are portrayed from a Nestra and Medea.
[00:20:20] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:20:20] It's so interesting. It goes right back to what you said earlier about virtue and what does it mean to be a virtuous person? And now I'm getting into the nitty and the gritty of my, my Greek mythology, and
[00:20:34] Adam Stokes: [00:20:34] I can talk to them about this stuff all day.
[00:20:36] I
[00:20:36] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:20:36] love this. Awesome. So, yeah, because as you, as you might be able to tell I'm a nerd for this. So, so, okay. So take something like the story of Antigony when she's in that position, she, she claims power. She goes, and she buries her brother and against the King's wishes. And then she pays obviously a pretty hefty price.
[00:20:57] What again, what do we do? [00:21:00] What do we do now? As far as activism, how do we relate that to people wanting like to, to black lives matter movement? The me too movement, all of those movements are those kinds of protests. And in, in, in the, in the ancient plays, there was death to come. Now we are in a, hopefully much more enlightened place, but still we are faced with the same question.
[00:21:26] What am I risking if I speak up, what am I risking? If I take action? Like Antigony did. Yeah.
[00:21:34] Adam Stokes: [00:21:34] I think that that's a really good point. And I think, you know, yes, we don't risk death per se, you know, hopefully not, but I know that, you know, I have some activist friends. I used to teach at a Unitarian seminary way back in the day.
[00:21:50] And a lot of my a lot of the students I taught went on to, to be activist. I even had some add in at Charleston in 2017. I don't know if you recall [00:22:00] that event with with the of course white supremacist but being an activist from what I've heard of activists, I, I'm not an activist.
[00:22:07]Part of me feels ashamed about that, but I'm not really activist per se. But I admire activist. I greatly admire admire activists. And from what they have told me, it is a, it is a taxing thing. So you don't, you know, it's not necessarily that your life is in danger. Sometimes it is sometimes it is, but that the mental burden of, you know, of seeing all the problems in the world and trying to do something about it and feeling like you're just making, you know, baby steps and, you know, just such small head, you know, Just a little headway.
[00:22:41]It's sometimes, you know really overwhelming. And so I know that, you know, a lot of activist struggle, you know, with issues of issue, issues of mental health. So I think going back to Antigony you know, making, I think that's a great example because at the end it comes down to what type of decision does she make?
[00:22:59] She [00:23:00] can back off and, you know, just have everything go back to normal or she can she can protest and be defined. And what is the cost of that? And I think that's a, that's an extremely relevant question, you know, for for today, you know, even, you know, if, if, like I said, there's no physical harm that comes to you, there is going to be some type of cost when you, when you serve as an activist in the way in, in, in a positive way.
[00:23:26] So there is going to be some mental costs, mental toll that it takes on you. And are you, are you ready? You know, are you ready for that? So if that makes sense. Oh, it
[00:23:37] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:23:37] absolutely does. And, and it, you know, we, we all have to evaluate for ourselves what we're going to do and how we're going to do it for sure.
[00:23:45] And I, I do want to say something Adam, that I, that I want to make, I want to make this point very clear. Consider yourself an activist you have taken on. The extremely important job [00:24:00] of teaching the next generation and the next generation and the next generation. If that's not an activist, I don't know what it is honestly.
[00:24:07] So please do not ever be ashamed of not being perhaps on the frontline at our March. You are an activist every single day. When you walk into the classroom and you help these students, your students discover. And get curious and ask questions and make suppositions and learn that that is if I were, if I were queen honestly or Empress professional basketball players would be making $30,000 a year and teachers were making in the millions.
[00:24:35] So, so I, I wanted to say that that's really important for me that you understand, I hold you in the highest regard because you've taken on what I consider to be a sacred
[00:24:45] Adam Stokes: [00:24:45] task. Thank you. Thank you. I, I, I definitely, I consider it, you know, sacred as sacred as well. I, my mother was a teacher she taught for 40 years.
[00:24:54]And I saw how she influenced people so much even years after. And [00:25:00] literally in the trenches of Baltimore, she literally saved some lives by the direction she was able to put students on. And so I always admired that about her. I mentioned to Mr. Butoh before, so. These are all people that I've looked up to.
[00:25:12] And I, I definitely, I felt that their calling was sacred and I feel like teachers call them sacred now. And at least in America, I don't think teachers get enough praise. Oh, not,
[00:25:21] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:25:21] not, not even a little I've spent, I've spent time working with teachers and I go into schools to teach. And one of my other gigs and teachers are heroes.
[00:25:30] Every single one of you have. You're amazing. I, I want to, if it's okay to switch gears just a little bit and perhaps switch oceans, maybe cross an ocean and let's cross the Atlantic and let's talk about ancient civilizations on the north American continent. Honestly, this is something that I I've done some research before this interview, but I don't really know anything about it.
[00:25:53] And, and yet I've been to snake canyon and I've spent time in the Southwest, but I would love to, to [00:26:00] speak with you a little bit about what, what that's about for you, what sparked your interest in ancient American civilizations and. What are your beliefs about these civilizations? Because there's some, there's plenty of stuff we just don't know.
[00:26:15] So, so what do you, what got you started and, and what is your focus about that?
[00:26:22] Adam Stokes: [00:26:22] Yeah. Happy to talk about that. So what got me started honestly is where was my where my religious views. And I'll say a little bit about that. So I was raised Baptist then For most of my life, then when I got to grad school kind of had a crisis of faith.
[00:26:39] I didn't really have any affiliation for a few years. Then spent some time with the Quakers and then joined one of the latter day, Saint movements, not the main one that you know of in Utah. But I'm an elder in a, what's known as a church of Christ with the Elijah message and all of the latter day, Saint traditions, community of Christ the Utah [00:27:00] church the bicker tonight church we're all kind of how can I say what the.
[00:27:06] Thing that holds us all together is our belief in something called the book of Mormon or the record of the fights as as my denomination calls it. And in that, in the book of Mormon, I'll just use the more common name. There's the idea that there were ancient civilizations that existed in north America and that at some point Jesus came and visit.
[00:27:28] These ancient civilizations. Now that is a faith claim. I'm not going to argue for that one way or another here on this show, but I will say that it got me very interested in trying to see and trying to research what ancient American civilization was like, because I'm sure it's probably the same for you, but when I was growing up basically when you asked about ancient American civilization, you were told the pilgrims and they had a nice Thanksgiving meal with the native Americans.
[00:27:56] And that was it. Now you knew a little bit about south America [00:28:00] with the Mayans and the inkind, but no inkers, but nobody and the Aztecs, but nobody ever really. Nobody ever really talks about north America pre 1492. So really my my interest in, you know, what can we know about ancient civilizations in America?
[00:28:18]Stemming from my kind of religious background made me get into this topic and from my own research, from what I've been able to ascertain in north America had had just as much of a rich elaborate culture with a huge empire seeking of the empires of the Hopewell and the Edina peoples, just as extensive, just as amazing as the empires of south America.
[00:28:45] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:28:45] That's fascinating. If that, if that is true, if we have civilizations in sort of more north of, of where the Mayans and the Aztecs and Incas were okay. [00:29:00] I, I let's see if I can figure out how to ask this question a few years ago, I visited eczema Pueblo in New Mexico, and it's, it's the most, it's the only continuously in existence town or city or community I should say for, since the 11th century.
[00:29:17] Right? So, so they've been around for a while in part, because they're so isolated, they're up on a big rock in the middle of the desert. So, so those folks have been around and we have some sort of continuous records of, of that happening, but, but what are the records that show that, that some of the more in sort of Northern American civilizations were an existence?
[00:29:44] When, and again, I don't, I don't, I'm, I'm asking, I'm not trying to be in pertinent or anything. I don't, I've never heard of primary sources that talk about the existence of these sorts of civilizations and, and peoples, [00:30:00] as you're talking about, please enlighten me.
[00:30:02] Adam Stokes: [00:30:02] Yeah. That's, that's a really good question.
[00:30:04] Most people have it. I mean, I hadn't heard of this until I started doing research for myself. There are not a lot of written records. Now we do have some inscriptions. Some Semitic inscriptions from some of the sites would suggest that some of these early north American campfires came from the near east.
[00:30:23] And there's a lot of debate as to whether these inscriptions are forgeries or if they're legitimate, I tend to have, I tend to side on the view that they're legitimate. When you look at them with my background, I have a background in Semitic languages, Hebrew and Aramaic. So But not just a written records mainly through the archeological record.
[00:30:41] So one of the things that I do as kind of the geek in me I travel around to various native American mounds. I have often taken my kids. I have a seven year old and a four year old. So I take them with me basically all the time. And they could kind of boil it to like, daddy's looking at his clumps of dirt again.
[00:30:59] But [00:31:00] back in the day, thousands of years ago, they weren't actually clumps of dirt. They've been destroyed by by present president habit, the president habitats of, of, of the region. Now. Back in the day these mounds were huge and some of them were as big as the dimensions of the pyramids of Egypt and in the 19th century as people have still found this stuff, some of this stuff today there were excavated in at a lot of these mounds people or excuse me remains skeletal remains of people who seem to have been rulers are decorated with jewelry with all types of fancy items.
[00:31:38]Also seem to have been slightly slightly to somewhat significantly taller than. Then modern human beings presently. So between seven to nine feet. So we know that these people were royalty of some type. They seem to rule the region around them, them. And we have this, not only from what we've been [00:32:00] able to determine from the archeological record, but also from just a tradition of native Americans, native Americans talk about people.
[00:32:06] Well who were there, who were here before and contemporaneous with their ancestors and how these people basically. Yeah, basically we're the rulers of, of these different civilizations that you have in the Midwest and in the great lakes region et cetera. So short answer to your, to your question, to your really good question.
[00:32:28]The archeological evidence and the oral traditions of the native Americans seem to strongly point to a acid empire in north America.
[00:32:42] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:32:42] I grew up in Michigan and lived there until after I graduated from the university of Michigan. And one of the places that we went to was serpent mound. And and so that, and I remember being there and I could feel the energy of the place was different when you were nearby there, it was, [00:33:00] it just felt different than when you were a few miles away.
[00:33:03] And so I, you know, they say that it's, that it was one of them was created by the Edina culture in like 500, 800 BC to somewhere around there. Can you talk about what the significance, because we don't exactly know why that serpent mound is there and I'm going to have to find a picture of it and put it up in the show notes for this, because.
[00:33:27] You know, you, you can see that it's there when you're there, but really it's best seen from above. So, so can you talk about what the significance of the serpent mound is? Well, what is it first of all and what the significance of it is to someone like you, who studies north American ancient
[00:33:44] Adam Stokes: [00:33:44] cultures?
[00:33:45] Certainly, certainly. I have not. Sadly I haven't been to the serpent man. I've been to some others. I've been to the new work earthworks. I've been to the Fort ancient mound. I've been to the Edina mound in Kentucky. But I have not yet gone to the surfer mal, but it's something that I hope to [00:34:00] do.
[00:34:00]Maybe a summer road trip with the kids. I will, I will do it. But yeah, the serpent mound is one of the longest Stretches just by it's by by feet, one of the longest, the mounts that exists in north America. And as you said, it's attributed to the Edina people who live between 500 BCE.
[00:34:20] And I believe a hundred CE depending some people debate that some people say 500 BCE to 400 CE. They're saying two major cultures in that region, your team and the hope. Well, and they seem to have fought with each other. We don't actually know their original names. Hopewell and Edina were much later names given to them named after the people who who basically found found their relics.
[00:34:45]So we don't know what their original names were. But yeah. So this serpent mound yeah. It's, yeah, it's pretty amazing. It's really something that you can only see really well, just like the new work mound from above when you're actually there. [00:35:00] You you can't really see it very well. But we don't know why that that circuit is there.
[00:35:05] There's a, there's a bunch of theories about that that this circuit may represent some form of Gnosticism or Gnostic religion amongst the Edina. The Edina, I should mention along with the hope. Well, a lot of people, including myself, have speculated that their origins come from the near east.
[00:35:23] So this could represent a reference to the biblical serpent tradition. Where you had you have the circuit featuring featuring prominently the beginning of the old Testament in the books of Genesis or it could be the Gnostic serpent who provides who provides wisdom. So in the ancient, near east in ancient, near Eastern context, serpents, as well as women were understood as harbingers of wisdom.
[00:35:48] That's why in the Genesis story, he is talking to the serpent. The serpent's not interested in the guy because a servant doesn't feel like the dude is all that wise, but he is talking to the woman because they're kindred spirits because [00:36:00] they're both seen as harbingers of wisdom. So a lot of scholars Zelda have said, you know, we're not sure what all of these mounds symbolized, but they were possibly used for ceremony or religious purposes and maybe some type of Gnostic ritual, Gnostic, religious purpose.
[00:36:18] Was was evident at the serpent mound. But something, I think this points to basically a large issue, she, that, you know, a lot more work now you have great archeologists in the field of American archeology, gee, but a lot of this stuff has really kind of, kind of been overlooked. And you know, I think when you get to the mountains, a lot of archeologists are content with the, with the explanation that they're just ceremonial and don't really go into more depth with them.
[00:36:46] So I think that a lot of the new researchers out there, including myself are trying to, you know, really get into this and say, you know, yes, we see that there's this funky symbol here, but what can we possibly determine about it? Is it more [00:37:00] than just if it is ceremonial, what is a ceremony per se? Can we reconstruct any idea of what of the religious use of, you know, this particular Mount site or that particular Mount site.
[00:37:14] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:37:14] I'm taking it all in for a second. Cause there's, there's so much to what you just said. So here I am, I am looking at the serpent mound or some of the other bandolier in, in New Mexico. Some of these places where people have left an indelible mark, that they were there, whether or not we know what it meant, somebody went, I'm going to, I'm going to let you know I'm going to have this, you know, for posterity, if you will.
[00:37:41] Not that they necessarily meant to do that, but it was, it was a way of marking what was happening there. And a few years I go to Ireland a lot. And when, when we were traveling, et cetera, et cetera. But yes, I go to Ireland a lot and I've spent time at the hill of Tara and it's and Newgrange. And, [00:38:00] and so Newgrange is 5,000 years old, or even older than that, maybe 7,000 years old.
[00:38:04] I believe it's 5,000 BCE is when it was built over, over time, of course, but Well, again, there are things there that when you, when you're there, there, there are at the, at the winter solstice in Newgrange, for example, you are going to see the sun shine in at the winter solstice. And the two days around that date, the shines in all the way down 90 meters into the central alternatives, the only time of the year, it does that.
[00:38:33] So they knew to build it that way. And the same thing happens on the equinoxes into loom in Mexico, the same kind of somebody went, you know what? We honor this so much that we're going to make this happen and Stonehenge and other such structures, if you will. So do we have any instance of this in.
[00:38:58] This part of Mexico. Yes. [00:39:00] But, but we're talking here specifically about sort of, I think the America's in the north American part of north America. And I hope, I didn't just say something really insulting to anyone who lives in Mexico, but I, I guess what, what would now be considered the United States or Canada?
[00:39:14] Do we have anything like that? Here that we can point to and go, yeah. There, somebody put, thought that sort of thought into this, this the placement of, of these mounds or these or these structures.
[00:39:30] Adam Stokes: [00:39:30] Oh, yes. So there is a researcher Sarah Farmer, and she goes into kind of into much more detail than I can about basically the astrological alignment of many of these mounds.
[00:39:42]And she argues that both with the solar lunar calendar they are aligned so many of these seem to be astronomically aligned. So suggesting that, you know exactly the exact There was an exact specific purpose to building these mounds. Last October I [00:40:00] was for a church conference in Kentucky and I got to see, I mentioned this before the Edina mound there and the Edina Mount in Kentucky in Lexington, Kentucky is really interesting because you can't see it any, you can't see this exactly any more because the river is dried up.
[00:40:15] But thousands of years ago, there was a river that ran parallel. To the man. So there's a small mound, there's a river, then there's a small man and then there's a bigger Mount next to it. And this is interesting because we know some people some other scholars have written on this as well.
[00:40:35]Such as Dr. Greg little but the river was seen not just in native American thought, but you get this in the Bible as well as the transition between life and death. So it is believed that the river was either the river of pre mortality where the soul slowly start to make, makes it makes its way into the worlds.
[00:40:58] The so moves from the river to the [00:41:00] small amount. And then the big man which represents human existence, or it could be the opposite way of the so leaving. The physical the physical realm with the big mound Benchley entering the realm of the dead and then crossing over in to the afterlife with the river.
[00:41:17] We're not quite sure either interpretation could could be argued for. But in that instance I think is an excellent example where this Mount is where you have Mount building. That seems to be deliberately planned. They deliberately plan to build this mound near this river to kind of reflect a, a spiritual, a spiritual belief.
[00:41:36] They had
[00:41:37] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:41:37] some sort of a crossing over like the river
[00:41:38] Adam Stokes: [00:41:38] sticks. Yes, exactly. In Greek mythology. That's a really good example.
[00:41:43] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:41:43] So going back to this, this, this notion of the modern lessons that we can learn, I, I was at a conference many years ago with Daniel Hillel. I don't know if you know who he is, biblical scholar and soil scientist.
[00:42:00] [00:41:59] And one of the things that he said. Was that when you look at the old Testament in the Aramaic, that it's not dominion over the earth and the animals that it's more like stewardship or caretaking, and it changes everything. If you, if you start describing that, that, that the notion of being caretakers, rather than having dominion over our environment, over the beans we share the planet with it changes that notion of virtue and that notion of how, how responsible we are not to, but for all of the different, incredible natural resources we have.
[00:42:36] So when you're working and you're an Aramaic scholar and a Hebrew scholar, when you're working on something like that, when you're looking at these old documents, can you talk a little bit about that notion of, am I choosing the right words? What do I have to do to make sure that I bring across the actual meaning.
[00:42:56] Of what is being said when something like dominion versus [00:43:00] stewardship or caretaking has made such a significant difference in how many people view our relationship to the planet we live on.
[00:43:08] Adam Stokes: [00:43:08] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's a really kind of, I think it's an excellent example of kind of a negative history of interpretation.
[00:43:15]People taking the Hebrew term actually is Michele. So it means like exactly, like you said, nurturing. Tender care for the environment. And you see this elsewhere in the Hebrew Torah in Leviticus, this is something I talk about with my, with my students in my old Testament class, this environmental ethos that Leviticus has that we read Leviticus, we read Leviticus 18 and we're like, oh crap.
[00:43:42] There's a lot of stuff in Leviticus that yeah, that is problematic. But the thing that goes overlooked and I try to emphasize this for my students. I'm like, don't, don't just skip Leviticus because in the video case, yes, you got, you had some bad stuff, but also in Leviticus you have this really strong environmental ethos where the [00:44:00] children of Israel, the  Israel are supposed to take care of nurture the land.
[00:44:07] And if they don't if they don't tend to the land and the land needs. They are punished by God for doing that. So it's a much different view than what has kind of emerged from Western readings of the Bible. We tend to interpret we intend to interpret that language as I think, you know, it's a misreading really that comes from Greek and Latin translations of the Hebrew Bible, reading Michelle reading, excuse me, sorry.
[00:44:34] Reading my law for Michelle. So I'm a lock means to rule. This is where we get the word Malek king from. So to rule over and have dominion that gets translated in the Septuagint. And in the Vulgate as to Lord over. So dominatrix in in Latin. But that is not what you get in the original in the original Hebrew.
[00:44:56]And so I try to, wherever I see [00:45:00] stuff like that, I try to emphasize and highlight that in my discussion with students and also in my book, there's a chapter in perspectives that deals with kind of the environmental ethos of, of the old Testament. And I think there's a way to navigate that if you give to students too much Hebrew, if they didn't go to Hebrew school or something, they're going to get overwhelmed.
[00:45:19] But I think that in instances where, you know, I think this is an excellent example that you brought up where it is definitely relevant and has had, you know, the fairest consequences in the way it's been interpreted. I think you can bring in Hebrew and the, the students are able, are able to understand that and they feel really good because they feel like they know a little bit.
[00:45:36] Yeah.
[00:45:38] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:45:38] And I lived in Israel for seven months when I was a child and, and a Hebrew is not an easy language, so it's really, it's it's wonderful. Now, nowadays I can say  and Ken and lo and that's it. That's all I remember. But, but let's, let's talk a little bit, actually, if you don't mind about some of your [00:46:00] publishing work, when, when you're, when you're doing it I I've written books and I got to tell ya non-academic publishing is very different than academic publishing.
[00:46:09] Can you talk a little bit about, cause I know there's this notion of publisher parish and all of that, but can you talk a little bit about what academic publishing is and what your experience of it has been.
[00:46:22] Adam Stokes: [00:46:22] Yes. Yes. So academic publishing is I would totally agree with you. I'm Izolda is a whole different ball game than non-academic publishing, just because you have, how can I put it, your subject?
[00:46:40] Your, your topic is so limited. So even if you're dealing with the Hebrew Bible or the old Testament, most people who are writing about it are specialized in their particular field. So my work I didn't finish my PhD, but when I was working on my PhD, my subs, my focus was on the book of job.
[00:46:58] Now here's the problem, [00:47:00] which is that everybody who has a specialty in your field is trying to write a book on the book of job, same thing in the classics. So. There's a district joke among class assists that, you know, everything that's been written about Homer has, has already been written. So there's no need to write anything else.
[00:47:17]But there's more stuff published on Homer and on the Iliad and the Odyssey than in any other academic field, including the sciences and cleaning biblical studies et cetera. So you're always trying to your big task is to try and find something creative and new within a field that within a topic that has been written on extensively.
[00:47:39]And a lot of times you're not gonna really be able to find anything super new or super innovative, but what you can find Izolda is that what you can do is bring your own perspective. To it, a perspective that hasn't been brought to brought to the material before I think in the classics that you see a [00:48:00] great example of this in several recent publications, several recent translations of the India and the Odyssey done by women, Emily, Montgomery.
[00:48:08] Yeah, I believe. But just you know, kind of taking, you know, her experiences as a female class assistant, bringing that to her translation of the Greek and you start to see things, you start to at least start to look at the texts in a way that you haven't you haven't ever looked at the text before.
[00:48:27] So that is the main challenge. That is the main challenge. To to writing in academia. The second challenge is that everything in academia for good or bad gets peer reviewed. So I remember the first project I ever worked on was a commentary for same book I'm actually working on.
[00:48:48] Now I'm doing a project on now. I mentioned before for the NRSV but the. There was a commentary that I was writing for a book called the Africana [00:49:00] Bible, which was basically black American perspectives on the old Testament. And I had to write on the additions of Daniel, which is one of the books of the Apocrypha, which is included in the Greek Bible, but it's not part of the original Hebrew text.
[00:49:14] I wrote my contribution. I had worked on it for several months. I wrote it in 2006 and it went through multiple peer reviews to the point that the final work wasn't published till around 2010. So it can take a really long time with all of the reviews and edits to get, to get something published.
[00:49:38]Now the good thing about publishing in academia, I've been working with something a publisher called Nella press for about three or four years now. Wonderful. Wonderful. Wonderful printing press. They have some great academic stuff. And the great thing about working with an academic publishing is that usually if you have a good publisher, like I have, [00:50:00] they're going to give you access to all types of resources that you wouldn't have even in your own home library.
[00:50:06] So you get to access databases with thousands of thousands of things. And so you have basically a plethora of resources from which to kind of formulate your own work. But it's not an easy process. There's a lot of peer review this, a lot of them saying, you know, this, distincts go back, fix this up, submit it again.
[00:50:29] Over and over and over again. But if you get through it it can be, it can be a very rewarding experience.
[00:50:35] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:50:35] So interesting that you said that I'm glad it's a rewarding experience. It would make me tear my hair out just because what happens when someone says, oh, this part is bad or this part is good or whatever, whatever the corrections or notes that they have, what if you disagree or is it incumbent upon you to change it because they said you had to, or can you sort of stick to your guns and go, no, I really believe this.
[00:50:57] You
[00:50:57] Adam Stokes: [00:50:57] know, that's a, that's a great question. [00:51:00] A lot of times what I have learned sometimes the hard way is to pick and choose your own battles. Sometimes. If I feel very strongly about something. So there was a whole article that I wanted to put into my perspective of the old Testament book on Deborah, who is one of the female judges in the old Testament.
[00:51:21]And there was a little bit of a pushback, you know, why can't we have an article that talks about, you know, the judges in general while I was like, my specific point is to, you know, highlight a female judge. Now we've all heard of Samson. We've heard of Samuel, but we haven't heard of Deborah that much.
[00:51:35] So I pushed back on that and I was able to get it. Into my Valium. Other times I've submitted stuff and I've been, you know, I've been like, you know, this work is, is so important. I at least want to get this subject matter. I just want to get this perspective out that what pops out, what ends up on the printed page looks significantly different than what I first wrote down, but [00:52:00] that I was able to get the general idea out.
[00:52:01] I made some compromises, but I was able to get the general idea. So you gotta, you have to pick and choose your battles. Hmm.
[00:52:08] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:52:08] Yeah, again, that would make me tear my hair out. So this is, this is sort of shifting gears just a little bit if it's okay. Sure. This is a little bit about the tools of your, of your trade.
[00:52:20] So you're, you're a scholar and your teacher and you're an author. And all of that is great. I worked at NASA for many years and one of the things that I remember fascinating me a few years ago, I heard about using satellite data. They were able to due to the amount of phosphorus in soil in a certain spot that wasn't supposed to have any kind of premium.
[00:52:43]Town or village on it, they found an entire village hidden under 30 feet of soil, essentially. So when you're doing that, and to me, that's super exciting because then they were able to find all of these incredible sort of archaeological mysteries solved because of [00:53:00] why, why was there so much phosphorus?
[00:53:01] Oh, that's because there was a human settlement there. So, so what are the tools that you as a scholar use, are you using that kind of, of, you know, LIDAR or some other kind of satellite data to learn about some of these ancient historical places in, in north America? Or are you finding your sources being secondary sources and you go from what some of the other data collectors have
[00:53:27] Adam Stokes: [00:53:27] done Haley secondary sources is ODA, mainly secondary sources.
[00:53:32]LIDAR is amazing, but usually you have to be working within the context of academia. To have resources for that professors tenured professors spend years writing grants just to get access to that stuff. I, I don't have that type of access. I have, I do teach at in an academic institution but I don't have that type of access.
[00:53:54] So a lot of my work comes from what some dude with a light, with a LIDAR ground penetrating [00:54:00] radar has done and written up about his or her research. And so I do that a lot of my stuff is very much old school. I have various Books on the subject by experts, many of those experts in my friends.
[00:54:14] So I will contact them and say, you know, Hey, you wrote this, is this what you meant? Or what can you tell me about this? So I basically have a bunch of, you know, concurrences and in fact, a PDF as an articles basically in my library at home that I use. But I also, I, I do the millennial in me also uses digital sources as well.
[00:54:36]But that's more limited than say if I was a tenured professor, I have access to some of that stuff. But not as much as if I was a tenured professor. And again, the nice thing. Once you start writing for a particular publisher they will give you what would cost you normally hundreds, if not thousands of dollars to have a subscription, to something like J store or something like that [00:55:00] they will give you access to that.
[00:55:01] So I try to take advantage. Whenever I can.
[00:55:05] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:55:05] Okay. Cause I was just wondering it's it's so I remember doing some of that work when I worked at NASA and seeing some of the results and just, I thought it was so fascinating to watch finding those kinds of, of touchstones. I, I guess I'll say to, to these ancient peoples is incredible.
[00:55:26] Have you found anything that has just proven false? Have you gone? Oh, I had my hopes up and this is just wrong. This is just not supported at all.
[00:55:36] Adam Stokes: [00:55:36] Yes. Yes. So there was we should have been proven wrong before. There was a Finding in the late 18 hundreds known as the Kindle hook plates, which were supposed to be re was supposed to be a written document about the history of ancient America.
[00:55:51] There's a whole story background story with Joseph Smith in the Mormon church with these plates and people over the years, they were proved [00:56:00] to be hoaxes basically in like a year or so after they were supposedly found. But people through the years have tried to argue for them for their authenticity.
[00:56:10]And I really don't see it, which is disappointing because it would be really cool if they were real, because it gives more insight into the history of, of ancient America. But I don't think that they are and you're, and you're gonna, that's going to happen a lot of times. So sometimes just going to find a dead end and the best thing you can do is just turn around and try again.
[00:56:29]But overall, I've been more amazed by what I have been able to find. That's turned out to be legitimate or, you know, have some. Something that can be verified rather than something that proves to be false.
[00:56:48] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:56:48] So what's next for you? I know that you're in the middle of writing a book and you're also teaching w if you could do anything, if, what, what would you be doing right now?
[00:56:57] What, what, what dig would you be on? What [00:57:00] writing would you be doing?
[00:57:01] Adam Stokes: [00:57:01] I would be probably at a, I'd probably be at the serpent mound or one of the mountains, Mississippi. Doing doing research there if I could be anywhere right now. So I would love native American mounts is, is something in the past couple of years that I've kind of become my obsession.
[00:57:18] So I would love to love to be doing that. But yeah, at the present time I am working, like I mentioned the, on the on the project, the commentary on the additions to Daniel for a new project with the NRSV I'm also a monthly contributor to a magazine ancient American magazine.
[00:57:38]So I have an upcoming an upcoming. A segment in there on the low side Luna's stone, which people have argued as a hoax, but there's seems to be a lot of evidence in its favor. And I talk about that. And then I'm always my a latter day Saint faith is very, very important to me. So I'm always kind of writing either reviewing somebody else's book or giving my own [00:58:00] insights into a latter day, Saint history and theology.
[00:58:04] So those are the main things that that I'm working on that I'm working on right now.
[00:58:10] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:58:10] That's lovely. Very cool. Well, I, I know that I, I, you and I could be geeking out about mythology for the next six hours, but I know you have a life and a day to get back to, so, so I would love it. If you would do me a favor and can you give sort of your social media links or where, if somebody wanders to know more about your work or follow you online, would you mind just giving those so that I'll put them in the show notes, but it's always really helpful to have more than one way of finding the information.
[00:58:37] Adam Stokes: [00:58:37] Absolutely. Absolutely. So I have in addition to being a full-time Latin teacher high school, I'm also a Latin tutor and I have a webpage for my business on Facebook. If you go to Facebook and type in lingua, Classica, that's the name of my business. And I put in a lot of my work and just general stuff about Greek roots [00:59:00] and yeah, Greco, Roman mythology on that side.
[00:59:02]So there's a lot of fun stuff on that side. If you're just interested in the Greco-Roman world. I put stuff on there all the time, and then I also have an Instagram account Adam, the giant guy where I put photos of different mounts that I've visited. I put up information about ancient north America and also some fun stuff as well.
[00:59:21] So there's pictures of my kids and stuff on there as well. So those are the two, those are my two main social media.
[00:59:29] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:59:29] Fabulous. That's wonderful. Thank you so much for doing that, Adam. You know, it's interesting. I'm in the middle of revising my next book and it's a mystery novel and Roman mythology plays a role and I had to translate from English into Latin and it's too bad.
[00:59:44] I didn't know you back then because it wouldn't be, my Latin is probably just atrocious. So you might not ever want to read the book, but
[00:59:51] Adam Stokes: [00:59:51] I would love to read the book.
[00:59:54] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:59:54] Yeah. Roman mythology plays a big role in the books, so but but yeah, it was really, [01:00:00] it was fascinating to go. How on earth do I translate something that is very much modern sounding the Lang I was speaking in modern English.
[01:00:08] Yes. And have it sound properly conjugated and the appropriate translation into Latin. And I'm sure that I'm way off. Oh, well,
[01:00:19] Adam Stokes: [01:00:19] well, I was just have to go look at it and I'll criticize you if you are,
[01:00:23] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [01:00:23] but it won't be, I reviewed because you obviously know so much more about this than I do. You're not like I'm not your peer you're way past your way past what I, what I know how to do.
[01:00:32] Well, Adam, I want to thank you so much for being on the show and for taking the time to talk about this. This is it's so fascinating to see how these ancient peoples and ancient knowledge can be really informative to us today. I'm so grateful that you took the time.
[01:00:48] Adam Stokes: [01:00:48] My pleasure. I love talking about this uptight.
[01:00:50] Thank you so much for having me. It was, oh,
[01:00:53] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [01:00:53] it was absolutely a delight. I have this one last question that I want to ask. It's a silly little question, but I find [01:01:00] that it, it yields some poignant answers and here's the question. Are
[01:01:03] Adam Stokes: [01:01:03] you ready? Certainly I will go for it. All right.
[01:01:05] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [01:01:05] So if you had a plane that could sky write anything for the whole world to see, what would you say.
[01:01:16] Adam Stokes: [01:01:16] I think, I would say carpet diem in the words of Robin Williams seize the day. And the reason I would say that is because so often we spent so much of our lives, you know, thinking. That things will happen to us. I'm not saying that good things won't happen to us, but a lot of times I've been guilty of this in the past.
[01:01:37]When we take initiative, we will be surprised at how doors opened up for us. So don't be afraid to, you know, get all out of your day.
[01:01:46] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [01:01:46] Oh, I love that. And I love that you quoted dead poet's society. It's one of my favorite movies. Oh, such a brilliant, brilliant movie. And if you haven't seen it, I'm going to put a link to that in the show notes too, because if you haven't seen it, you need it.
[01:01:59] Adam Stokes: [01:01:59] What are [01:02:00] those films you need to see before you die? Absolutely. Yeah. Oh,
[01:02:02] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [01:02:02] completely. Really just tremendous. And when I was talking to you about professor Cameron at the university of Michigan, he was that kind of professor, the kind of teacher Robin Williams is in dead poet's society. Cameron was that kind of teacher at the university of Michigan.
[01:02:14] So that's awesome. I highly recommend the movie and also go find the works of Adam Stokes and the works of HD Cameron. And. Read the Odyssey, because it's a great story, regardless of anything else. It's a cool story. All right. This is all the Trakhtenberg for the innovative mindset podcast. I hope that you've enjoyed today's show.
[01:02:35] And if you have, I would love it. If you would rate and review the podcast, let me know what you're thinking. Let me know about episodes that I need to have on the show. As you can tell, I'm willing and ready and hopefully able to geek out about all sorts of topics until next time. Once again, this is Izolda.
[01:02:51] Trakhtenberg reminding you to listen, learn, laugh, and love a whole lot.
[01:03:01] [01:03:00] Thanks so much for joining me today. I really appreciate you being here. Please subscribe to the podcast if you're new and if you like what you're hearing, please review it and rate it and let other people. And if you'd like to be a sponsor of the show, I'd love to meet you on patrion.com/innovative mindset.
[01:03:19] I also have lots of exclusive goodies to share just with the show supporters there today's episode was produced by Izolda Trakhtenberg in his copyright 2021 as always, please remember, this is for educational and entertainment purposes. Only past performance does not guarantee future results, although we can always hope until next time, keep living in your innovative minds.
 
 
 

John Kao Mr. Creativity, Creative and Visionary on Innovation

John Kao, Dubbed Mr. Creativity by Forbes on Creative Thinking, Innovation, and Their Crucial Role in Our New Future
The Economist tagged John with the nicknames “Mr. Creativity” and “A Serial Innovator.” He is a thought leader, practitioner, and activist, who has played a leading role in the fields of innovation and business creativity for over 30 years.
His knowledge is eclectic and blends the perspectives of former Harvard Business School professor, serial entrepreneur, musician, master facilitator, former CEO, Harvard-trained psychiatrist, best-selling author, and Tony-nominated producer of film and stage. Yamaha Music Corporation named him their first “innovation artist.” He is a trusted advisor to leaders of companies, startups, and nations that are on the hot seat to deliver meaningful innovation strategies and action agendas. 
Connect with John
https://www.johnkao.com/johnkaolive
https://www.instagram.com/johnkaojamming/
https://twitter.com/johnkao
https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnkao/
The Episode's full transcript
John-Kao-on The Innovative Mindset Podcast
[00:00:00] John Kao: [00:00:00] The need for innovation and the need to practice innovation never go away. It's kind of the long March. If you will.
[00:00:13] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:00:13] Hi and welcome to the innovative mindset podcast. I'm your host. Izolda Trakhtenberg on the show. You get my conversations with peak performing thought leaders, creatives, and entrepreneurs. We explore how you can innovate through creativity, compassion, and collaboration. I believe that innovation combined with compassion and creative thinking can save the world and I aim to bring you ways.
[00:00:35] You can do it too. If you're enjoying the show, I'd be super grateful. If you could support it by buying me a cup of coffee, you can buy me a cup@buymeacoffee.com slash Izolda tea. And now let's get on with the show.
[00:00:57] Hey there and welcome to the innovative mindset [00:01:00] podcast. My name is Izolda Trakhtenberg. I'm so happy that you're here and I am ridiculously happy and honored to have today's guest on the show. The man's name is John Kao, and you've got to hear this, the economist tag, John with the nicknames, Mr.
[00:01:15] Creativity, and a serial innovator. So you know how close this is to my heart. He is a thought leader, practitioner and activist who has played a leading role in the fields of innovation and business creativity. For over 30 years, his knowledge is eclectic and blends the perspectives of former Harvard business school professors, serial entrepreneur, musician, master facilitator, former CEO, Harvard trained psychiatrist, bestselling author, and Tony nominated producer of film and stage.
[00:01:45] Wow, Yamaha music corporation named him their first innovation artist. He's a trusted advisor to leaders of companies, startups, and nations that are on the hot seat to deliver meaningful innovation strategies and action agendas. [00:02:00] Wow, John, thank you so much for being on the show. I'm so honored and thrilled and I'm tripping over my words, but I just want to say thank you for being here and welcome.
[00:02:09] John Kao: [00:02:09] Well, the honors online. I'm happy to be here.
[00:02:12] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:02:12] Oh, this is so there are so many things about what you do and have done that every time I read more or learn more, I, I giggle like I'm, I ha I'm a school girl with a crush. I'm going to say that right now, because so much of the work that you're doing is, is it's crucial as we move forward.
[00:02:32] And especially this last year has been so much disruption. And you say, you talk about leading in a time of disruption and that you are looking for new and innovative ways to do that. And I would love it. If you would talk about that a minute, just as we get started, what, what does that mean to you? That we are now in this eight time of disruption and what makes this disruption different than the disruptions we've had in the past?
[00:03:00] [00:03:00] John Kao: [00:03:00] Well, I'm glad you asked that because it's a great way to frame our conversation. And I think we need to be a bit critical not in a negative critical sense, but in a thoughtful sense about the word disruption, because it's kind of a word that carries some assumptions that once disruption has passed, things will return to a steady state or to a normal.
[00:03:20] I actually did a article recently in my forbes.com column where I compared the word disruption to the word, this continuity. And I actually think discontinuity is almost a better way of describing our situation, which is to say we're like sailors that have set forth like Magellan in the great age of sail with maps that were incomplete because in the middle of the ocean the often the legend would be, you know, beyond here, like lie monsters.
[00:03:47] And Magellan Vasco, da Gama and others set forth on faith that they would find India or they would find spices. And we are, I think, in an era of discontinuity in the sense that our. Existing [00:04:00] maps no longer suffice for helping us to navigate forward. And, and we're not in a way able to fall back on this idea that things will get back to normal or that a disruption will subside like a storm at sea that gradually gives way to calm waters.
[00:04:16] You know, if we think about what we as global civil society are faced with in terms of issues of climate war and peace social inequity et cetera, et cetera, these are mammoth wicked complex problems that can only be resolved by innovation. And that leads to the second point you mentioned in the opening, which is the need for a fresh viewpoint on.
[00:04:42] Innovation, as I like to say, we need to innovate innovation. Because innovation has been out there for a long time. It's like, Haley's comment. It comes and goes Praxis and wanes in terms of popularity and being in Vogue with management pundits and with business leaders. [00:05:00] But and, and the importance of innovation continues to be recognized in the C-suite in the you know, at the high levels of companies, CEOs recently polled said that innovation was one of their top priorities, but I would wager that a large percentage of them Can't even define the word meaningfully, let alone point to the practical expression.
[00:05:22] You know, the innovation as a discipline, as opposed to innovation as a mood or culture building effort, or as my friend, Rita McGrath likes to call it innovation theater, we're going to be very innovative and we're going to let our hair down and come up with wacky ideas and we'll do that for, you know, the duration of a corporate retreat.
[00:05:44] And then we'll go back to business as usual. So I think innovation Marvin Minsky who was one of the fathers of artificial intelligence once said that there were certain words that were like suitcases because you really needed to unpack them to get the full meaning. And innovation is [00:06:00] definitely one of those words.
[00:06:01] And because it's so overused in a way we have this phenomenon, I see a lot of innovation, fatigue, or innovation, cynicism, or innovation complacency where people say, oh yeah, you know, we've done innovation. In fact, one person who is a Washington government official once amazingly told me that in his department they had tried innovation and it didn't work.
[00:06:25] So now they were doing other things. Oh no, not to, not to turn government into any kind of a cliche, but I, I, what I find often is that there's innovation, cynicism. It's kind of like we did it, you know, it kind of worked but. It was, it was time limited, you know, there was a beginning, middle and end to it.
[00:06:43] And in fact, innovation, the need for innovation and the need to practice innovation never go away. It's, it's kind of a, the long March, if you will. So we're in an, a era of discontinuity. We need to, re-imagine what the maps look like. And [00:07:00] innovation is more important than ever, but we need to have a fresh point of view about how to do it, and not just at the level of companies, but at the level of society.
[00:07:10] And also bringing it down to the, you know, the trees versus the forest for each one of us as individuals in our lives and in our work,
[00:07:21] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:07:21] I'm taking all of that in for a second. Wow. Okay. So. I first of all. Yes, absolutely. I agree. You're going to hear me say that a lot during this next few minutes, but, but yes, absolutely.
[00:07:36] The need for reinventing how we innovate and what it actually means to each of us on the individual corporate and even global scale is great. Absolutely. I understand that. And yet, how do we, I mean, I named this podcast, the innovative mindset, how do we as individuals and then companies and organizations and nations [00:08:00] and, and, and the world, how do we get comfortable with innovation?
[00:08:03] And if there's no sense of comfort, you mentioned something that was, that you said innovation as a discipline. What are the steps do you think of becoming disciplined as an innovator? What does that mean? And how do you practice it?
[00:08:19] John Kao: [00:08:19] Well, in order to answer that question, we have to agree on a definition of innovation.
[00:08:25]You know, I, I get into conversations about it often and I always have to start the conversation by saying, what do you mean? What do you mean by the word innovation? Because if we don't have alignment around the definition we really cannot have a conversation. So the dictionary defines innovation as if I amalgamate all the dictionary definitions, it it goes something like this.
[00:08:48] Innovation is creativity applied to some purpose to realize value. So that's important to keep in mind because you know, creativity is the [00:09:00] human ability to generate new ideas, new insights and. It's something that all humans have, you know, it's the way our brains work. We free associate. We daydream, we dream at night.
[00:09:11]We are able to come up with new things, but it doesn't mean that those new things are valuable. Just like playing random notes on the piano is very creative, but it doesn't lead to a marketable CD, you know, or composition. So creativity applied to some purpose. It has to be about something.
[00:09:28] You know, this is a problem I run into all the time in companies where they say, well, you know, our, the goal of our creative efforts is to grow our profits by 5% a year, or it's to accomplish some tactical goal. When in fact innovation always has to be the answer to a a meaningful question because otherwise why bother, you know, it's why get out of bed earlier in the morning to serve that?
[00:09:51]Cause, and then finally it has to be about creating something of value. And I would argue of enduring a value. It has to [00:10:00] change the existing order of things. They, the, the simple example is Edison who, when he created the first light bulb was an inventor, but he really wasn't an innovator until light bulbs became pervasive and elect, you know, our society became electrified.
[00:10:17] So, you know, this whole notion that innovation is a discipline. You know, if you just take that dictionary definition, you have to be good at ideation, whether it's understanding your individual creativity or understanding how ideas emerge in human interaction collaboration, and then how it emerges in organizations in terms of culture and rewards and talent policies and leadership attention.
[00:10:45] And then how it emerges in societies where. Societal goals and purpose and identity and leadership translate either into a environment that encourages creative expression or, or stifles it. [00:11:00] Right. So then we turn our attention to another definition. So I've spent a lot of time trying to think about how to make innovation more tangible for practitioners.
[00:11:11] And you know, to me, innovation is a set of capabilities, capabilities, being things that require practice to acquire, like playing the piano, a set of capabilities that enables the continuous realization of a desired future. So, what that means is that you have to have some sense of almost moral purpose.
[00:11:35] I don't mean moral enough, a religious sense, but moral in the sense of of what is good, what is virtuous? What is true. And it has to be something that you just don't do episodically, but is part of what you do all the time. And that in order to fully realize innovation, you have to have a vision of the future that you want.
[00:11:55] You know, we, we have a vision of the future of our planet as [00:12:00] being in climate equilibrium and at peace. Well, you know, great. So how do we get there? And then the kippah capabilities break down into literally scores is of specific proficiencies that, you know, we, we, if we had 10 hours, we wouldn't be through that.
[00:12:15]But ultimately have to do with how you. Linked the right kind of human talents to the right kind of resources, to the right kind of ideas blended with the right kind of processes to enable innovation, the flywheel of innovation to begin to turn. And this is, you know, my thing is really about how you do innovation.
[00:12:34] You know, there are plenty of people who can tell you what it is and why it's important, but there are relatively few people out there who are focused on the how, and that's, that's part of my mission statement.
[00:12:48] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:12:48] Again, I have to take a couple of seconds and take all of that in it's. It's fascinating to me how this notion of the different areas that [00:13:00] we have to combine the capabilities, the resources, the opportunity for, for innovation. The, the thing that, I'm the thing that I'm struck by though, is something that you said as far as your definition and the, how, I guess the thing that, that makes me go, Hmm.
[00:13:18] I wonder is about creativity. That part of it is so you and I are both creative people and we're both musicians, which I think is fabulous. And one of the things that I do with the clients that I work with when I do speaking engagements, all of that is we talk a lot about thinking creatively, giving yourself permission to do that, to think creatively, because many people are afraid or think that they can't.
[00:13:42] So if I were going to ask you the following, I'm wondering what your answer will be. You might just go, oh, come on is older. But maybe, maybe it won't be, it won't be a silly question to you, but how can we learn from that notion of innovation to think creatively and how can [00:14:00] we think creatively to move forward?
[00:14:04] John Kao: [00:14:04] Well, creativity, as I said earlier, is an attribute of the way humans think and experience their environment. So everybody is creative in the literal sense of being creative, but where I think people get a little confused is equating creativity with talent, you know, so, so Mozart was creative, but he was also a musical genius.
[00:14:26]And all of us, you know, in a sense can learn how to find middle C on a piano or learn to listen to our inner monologue in terms of coming up with new things. But creative is not necessarily to be talented or gifted in that, in that sense. So having said that anybody can learn how to be more attentive to their creative output.
[00:14:49] They can be more attentive to. Understanding the conditions under which creativity flows for them and, and how to increase the odds of [00:15:00] generating creative ideas Twyla Tharp the choreographer wrote a great book called the creative habit where you know, she gets into very practical tips about, you know, how to record your ideas.
[00:15:12]One thing that I, I adopted from her book cause I, I found it highly amusing and ultimately very, very useful was every time she has an idea for a new project, the first thing she does is she she purchases a box and labels it with the name of the project and it might be an empty box for a long time, but it becomes a way of making the idea or the impulse tangible often when I start a project I'll, I'll have a loose-leaf binder.
[00:15:38] With nothing in it. I'll put a very nice cover illustration on it and label it with the project name. It's the same idea. And and then ultimately fill it in. But at the beginning it's creating a they're there for the idea to land and to be able to live. So there are there are mountains of of books and a lot of [00:16:00] knowledge about how to enhance ideation.
[00:16:02] I, you know, I, I even in my own small way contributed to that. I wrote a book called jamming, which was really what can leaders learn from jazz musicians because jazz musicians are paid to generate new musical ideas. That sound good. As a capability, you know, they don't wish to be creative or, you know, prayer, rubber chicken bones together.
[00:16:24] They sit down at the piano and play new notes. That sound great. And it's again, and it's not because they got inspired or, you know, they, they participated in innovation theater it's because they spent decades practicing and studying and learning and immersing themselves in a discipline. So that at the moment of inspiration they could generate something new.
[00:16:45] It's
[00:16:45] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:16:45] interesting that you said that it's. It's having the skill to back up the talent. It feels like to me, talent feels in Nate, it's something that you are perhaps born with and then need to build on or build the [00:17:00] skills, but skills you can learn, you can teach yourself the piano or you can learn from, from an instructor.
[00:17:06] And, and yet there's a lot of failure in music. I mean, I grew up playing the violin for example. And boy, did I fail a lot because if you're not just right, what was that
[00:17:18] John Kao: [00:17:18] takes a while to sound good when you're learning how to play the violin?
[00:17:21] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:17:21] Absolutely. It takes a long while. Yeah. Yeah. And yet there, so just a little bit of a background on me, so, so that you can understand the question about to ask better.
[00:17:32]I went to high school with the likes of Andrew LOPA and Jeffrey seller, and you're, you've, you've done work in, in, on Broadway. So you I'm sure you know who they are. And you could tell that they were different. Even in high school, even when we were doing musical theater together, Jeffrey was always going to be a producer of some sort that was his great passion.
[00:17:51] And then, you know, because of his efforts, we have you know, and of course Lin Manuel Miranda, but we have the likes of Hamilton. We have the likes of rent. [00:18:00] Andrew was always different. Also, there was something about both of them that their talent, you could feel it was innate. And yet they, they both went on and just practiced and practiced and practiced.
[00:18:11] And so I wonder for those people who are not perhaps innately talented, what are your thoughts about building those skills? What are your thoughts about saying, okay, this is a muscle that I can exercise and I can improve. As far as being creative, as far as being an innovator. Can you do it just like Malcolm Gladwell says with 10,000 hours or are you sort of out of luck if you don't have that innate talent to begin with?
[00:18:39] John Kao: [00:18:39] Well, I think I, my belief is that we all have the innate talent to develop new ideas that could be meaningful. But as you said, and I was going to use the word muscle, there, there is a need to practice. And I think that innovation in companies especially is, is this kind of mental gymnastic that [00:19:00] says, well, you know, you read this book or hear this speech or learn this set of rules.
[00:19:05] And then you'll, you'll be more innovative when I think. That's that's like, you know, that's like learning how to play jazz by having somebody show you PowerPoint slides of using you on how to play the diminished scale with the proper fingering. But until you actually sit down at the piano and practice, you're nowhere and practice is really the key to gaining proficiency and gaining skillfulness, so to speak.
[00:19:33] So, so the question that I often ask when I'm working with people, whether they're in government or in business is what is your practice model for innovation? What are the things that you. Feel are most important that contribute to being an innovative organization that you practice on a routine basis.
[00:19:52] So as to, you know, hone that proficiency and usually the answer is you know, we don't really, it's a hard [00:20:00] question to answer. We don't have to really have an answer to that. So training is important. The ability to establish objective processes that can be repeated. And you know, it's like if you facilitate a design thinking session, once you'll be okay at it, if you do it 50 times, you'll feel really, really capable.
[00:20:19] Is the organization able to support that level of practice because, and, and does it have an answer as to why practicing that particular skill is important and how it relates to an overall innovation story for the organization? So it's, you know, once you pull on the thread of innovation, you know, you find that it links to quite a few other considerations, which makes it a complicated affair to manage.
[00:20:48] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:20:48] And yet companies who want to, and people who want to and governments that want to become more innovative. And certainly we're seeing [00:21:00] this with the new administration coming in and all of these different things. As far as the climate different initiatives, how, how do we, as, as innovative thinkers, as innovative people or organizations, what's the messaging behind that?
[00:21:17] How do we get other people on board or other organizations or other governments or other nations on board with the innovations for something like climate, for example, we're one country, won't one country doing something won't necessarily make. The entire planet healthy again, but a lot of countries working together will definitely make an impact.
[00:21:39] What would your thoughts be on that? How do we get people and organizations and governments bought in to this new way of thinking?
[00:21:47] John Kao: [00:21:47] Well, the first point is that issues like climate, the wicked problems that face the world are not American problems or Chinese problems or Indian problems, they're human or global problems.
[00:21:58] And so they have to be looked at as a [00:22:00] global systems kind of a challenge. Cause you know, America could become net zero carbon, but if the rest of the world isn't, you know, we have to breathe there that belongs to everybody. So I think a lot of the challenge for making the shift to an innovation.
[00:22:19]Oriented posture, whether it's in a company that's going through a transformation effort or whether it's galvanizing the world around an agenda like climate is, is creating a sense of urgency. Change doesn't happen in less. There is a reason to change. You know, people are busy enough with their day to day.
[00:22:37] And the idea that you get out of bed earlier in the morning to address a challenge, won't really resonate and less. There's a sense that there are real consequences and th th the problem with something like climate change and the environment as. An example is that, you know, people may intellectually understand that it's a problem, but it doesn't show up in your day to day life.
[00:22:58] You know, it's not like I, it gets darker [00:23:00] or you know, you get a bill for your electricity. That's twice as big. And, you know, there's a disconnect in terms of what you, as an individual would do to contribute to the environment. So, you know, you could recycle and, you know, you could try to be conservative about using your water and things like that, but there's no connection between that personal narrative and the collective narrative.
[00:23:23] So instilling a sense of urgency, number one, and then creating a connection between individual action and the collective wellbeing. So, you know, There are attempts. And I think there's going to be a lot more of this coming down the line that almost creates personal dashboards where your activities around consumption and so forth and so on.
[00:23:44]You know, your, your carbon footprint, et cetera, are reflected in recommendations about shifting your behavior. The, the, the, at the national or supernational level, the question is creating buy-in, you know, like if there were some massive disruption [00:24:00] in the global ecosystem that nobody could ignore, then action would be taken just like, you know, the Penn global pandemic has been for all of its unfortunate consequences are real accelerant of national governments taking a global point of view.
[00:24:16] And I'm sure there's going to be a lot of call in the aftermath or even currently for new mechanisms for. Mitigating, if not preventing the next pandemic and figuring out mechanisms of international cooperation that go beyond the really unseemly kind of, you know people elbowing each other out of the way and finding that they weren't prepared.
[00:24:37] And you know, all of the kinds of shifting things that happened around vaccine allocation globally and so on. So I think it's about it's about leadership and it's about the narrative and it's about creating a sense of of urgency. And once people understand what is needed, then they can fall in.
[00:24:55] I mean, if there's no alignment around what the problem is and how to address it, then of course nothing's [00:25:00] going to happen.
[00:25:01] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:25:01] Oh, you're singing my song. Yeah, absolutely. And it's interesting. And. It's always been fascinating to me as I worked in earth system science at NASA for many years. And this notion of the difference between weather and climate was very it was profound for people because weather is whether or not it's going to rain tomorrow and climate is years and decades.
[00:25:23] And so w the, the issue that we ran into was that people had there's a little bit of a problem. Societaly globally thinking. Long-term that you have to think that, oh, 50 years from now, 40 years from now, the climate will change 20 years from now. The climate will change. And that is important to me now.
[00:25:41] So getting people to address it with that sense of urgency, I agree with you. It's really important that the, the thing that I think a lot of people, certainly a lot of my colleagues at NASA struggle with is how, how to, how to get that sense of urgency in front of people. If, if some people are still, [00:26:00] you know, trumpeting that it doesn't exist, that there is no such thing as human, human caused or human accelerated climate change.
[00:26:07] So do you have thoughts on that? What are your thoughts on. Changing the thinking of people who either deny something like this or, or, or, or refuse to think that it could be important. Now when the consequences might not be felt for decades.
[00:26:27] John Kao: [00:26:27] Well, so this is storytelling. I mean, one of the reasons why I delved into the cultures of Hollywood and Broadway is because I was fascinated by people who made a living, telling stories and selling them to hundreds of millions of people.
[00:26:40] So it's one thing, if you publish a white paper or give a speech, it's another thing. If you create a a movie so one of the reasons why an inconvenient truth for its time was such an influential. A piece of media was because it told the story in visual terms and it made [00:27:00] the issues of climate really quite difficult to ignore.
[00:27:03] I mean, you have to be in denial to watch the movie and not come out of it, feeling like there was a real a real problem and often, you know, a sense of urgency isn't felt it has to be created. I did some work for a guy named Jaan Timur when he had just taken over Phillips the big Dutch technology conglomerate.
[00:27:22] And he in his first management meeting put one item on the agenda for discussion, which was a handout and the handout was a newspaper front page. And the headline story in the upper right-hand corner was Phillips goes bankrupt. And it was a well written story with a lot of analysis set in the future about how this great company, you know, sort of a general electric level company had gone bankrupt.
[00:27:49] And that was the only thing that he discussed with his senior people that day. And so in order to take the long view we have to take the idea of [00:28:00] wellbeing, planetary wellbeing down from the level of abstraction, to the level of personal advocacy. You know, we have to be thinking about how it relates to the world that our children are going to be in.
[00:28:10]It has to do with our sense of, you know, generative responsibility, as you know, the, the generation that right now is in the driver's seat to assure the, you know, the future viability of the planet, which right now is in some doubt, I mean, it's not horrible yet, but it's bad and getting worse by the day.
[00:28:27] So this, this is where, what I call moral intelligence or the ability to craft bridges between innovation and purpose become really, really important. And to create that sense of moral activation. And again, not in the religious sense, but in the values based sense of virtue to to, to frame the right kinds of of activity.
[00:28:50] And, you know, a sense of urgency comes from understanding the problem, you know, and I have this framework called the second, this intelligence is that I've been sharing with people, which is a refresh view of how innovation [00:29:00] needs and leadership. Need to work. And one of the key intelligences is context intelligence, or the ability to deeply understand the truth of what's going on in your environment and not to be constrained by denial or by your biases or by your inability to do good research or your ability to go outside of your institution or your frame of reference.
[00:29:22] And it's only when you have an accurate point of view, uncontaminated by prejudice or bias that you can then say, oh, we really are in serious trouble. And now we have to really think about the scale at which we operate as innovators, both innovators as individual humans, but also innovators as the institutions of society.
[00:29:44] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:29:44] I love that you've mentioned the six intelligences and I love the notion of sort of objective observation instead of, instead of letting your biases. Color what, what you think or what you do. You'll [00:30:00] try to be objective as much as possible. I wonder if you wouldn't mind talking. Cause I, I was, that was actually literally the next question I was going to ask was about the six intelligences.
[00:30:10] What prompted you to develop them? And if you don't mind sharing, what are they
[00:30:16] John Kao: [00:30:16] sure. So, you know, I've been exposed to lots of different leadership frameworks over the years, and I felt during the pandemic that at least for me, it would be important to take a fresh look at what you really needed to be good at in a time of of this continuity and, you know, turbulence that we've experienced.
[00:30:33]And that a lot of the old playbooks around leadership weren't really that valuable in this, in this situation. So I took a leave from the. Notion of multiple intelligences, which is actually an education concept developed by Howard Gardner. Who's a former colleague at he's at the school of education at Harvard.
[00:30:52] And you know, he said, well, there's the kind of analytical intelligence that you have when you take sat [00:31:00] tests or math tests, but really there are other intelligences, like kinesthetic intelligence, if you're a great dancer or a auditory intelligence, if you're a great musician or spatial intelligence, if you're a great architect and that we don't test for these are really.
[00:31:15]Pay attention to them or educate for them in the same way we do for that more narrow kind of rational analytical intelligence. And I thought, oh, well, I have always believed that. So let me think about whether I can come up with a framework of archetypes of intelligence that are relevant for today.
[00:31:33] So the, so there are six and the first is context intelligence and, you know, it's, it's, it's what so bill Bradley was a very famous basketball player in his day. And uh, you know, he was described as always having a sense of where he was, you know, a situational awareness and you know, people like fighter pilots know that they have to be able to not only have 360 degree perspective, but be able to translate that [00:32:00] immediately into A a, a decision and an action taking right.
[00:32:04] In order to prevail in fighter pilot combat and things of this kind. So, so there's a whole bunch of knowledge and recommendations around how to create context intelligence, both for individuals and for organizations, moral intelligence, which we've already spoken about is the second, which is the kind of compass of values that basically shape the, the purposeful intention of an organization or of an individual for that matter.
[00:32:29] And, you know, what are the values that undergird your your activities? Then you have human intelligence, which is basically cultivating the sensitivity to others that enables collaboration that enables the, the ability to read the language of people. So that. Culture building organizational transformation, narrative development, resonate with humans because so often management is this human free exercise of applying analytical power to, you know, your marketing strategy or your finance [00:33:00] strategy.
[00:33:00] But people have a vote and increasingly in this kind of, and post pandemic distributed, you know gig economy world sensitivity and to, especially to talent, you know, and to creative process is really important. And then generative intelligence is basically how you generate ideas and realize value from them which is kind of a repackaging of innovation but and applies to individuals organizations, and even to societies as a whole, as a whole, then we have technological intelligence because.
[00:33:32]I argued that many people in positions of leadership don't have a finger feeling for how the development of technology is accelerating and how technologies are beginning to. Blend and, you know, fit together in different ways. You know, the whole merging of the biological and the digital is both confusing and filled with opportunities.
[00:33:55] And also how technology relates to your organization [00:34:00] and to the team that every organization is going to be influenced by artificial intelligence and digital technology, digital transformation and transformation for innovation are increasingly converging as topics of concern. And then finally transformation intelligence, again, borrows from some of what we've already discussed, which is, you know, what's your theory of change and how do you affect that transformation?
[00:34:26] So whether it's transformation at an individual level or transformation at an enterprise level, you know, what are the levers for accomplishing that? What are the metrics? How do you know that you've been successful? What's the role of narrative, a culture shift, leadership behavior, et cetera. So the feedback that I've gotten and I've turned this into various learning regimes, there's an online course.
[00:34:49] That's going up shortly that I hope will be available to lots and lots of people. The feedback I've gotten is wow. You know, here we are in this era of discontinuity, all of [00:35:00] these matter, these six intelligences they resonate, how do we get more? How do we learn about these? And, you know, I feel like you need all of them at least to a certain extent, cause it's like a wheel, you know, the wheel is missing a segment and it's flat on that segment, the wheels, not going to turn very effectively.
[00:35:19]And it's also a great way of identifying gaps. Both in yourself and also in your organization, because if you have an organization that's not proficient at some of these things it's just, I would argue not going to be as successful in the current environment,
[00:35:36] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:35:36] what a wonderful breakdown. And, and I'm so glad that you have a class that you'll be offering. I hope that you'll let me put that in the show notes so that, so that people can, can find it and perhaps take it. I'm interested in. You mentioned something while you were talking about them, about how often these various intelligences relate to each [00:36:00] other, like you said, well, we talked about that when we talked, you know, this is a callback to innovation, this is a callback to this.
[00:36:06] It seems to me that they it's almost like firing synapses in the brain, that they are going to need to use the, all the different intelligences in order to, to, as you said, prevail. And that brings me right back around to music. I feel like when you're playing a musical instrument, in many ways, you need to access all of those intelligences as well in order to be able to Excel at your chosen instrument.
[00:36:32] If it's your voice, your piano, your violin, whatever, what are your thoughts about that relationship? I know that you've used music in the past and probably still do to, to help others innovate and to help yourself innovate. How do you relate music to these intelligences and to innovation as a whole.
[00:36:50] John Kao: [00:36:50] Well, it's really a great question.
[00:36:52] And I, I think this is probably an opportunity for me to step out and reflect for a moment on exactly that [00:37:00] question. Cause I, I wouldn't say that I've thought about it in exactly that way before, so well, let's see. I mean, I'll relate this, especially to to jazz, right? So in jazz the performer needs to have a multidimensional awareness of what's going on and it's not thinking it's really it's sensory awareness, it's emotional Intel emotional awareness.
[00:37:23] It's it's awareness of the traditions it's awareness of the sweet spot between what's familiar and what is new it's awareness of one's inner emotional state awareness of the performance environment. So there's a number of dimensions of context, intelligence that are required. Then the second moral intelligence well, you know, for, for me and for, I think anyone who.
[00:37:47] You know, it, it takes it seriously. Sitting down at the piano is it's a commitment to purpose and a commitment to authenticity. And, you know, we fall short constantly, or I feel like I fall short constantly, [00:38:00] but the, what matters is picking yourself up and, you know, pursuing the path of virtue to try to create the most beauty and the most authentic way possible.
[00:38:09] So it's purposeful and it's about creating that experience for other other people and then human intelligence. I mean, I, I have found that the most interesting kind of challenges for me have been on the self knowledge and mastery of self side, because you know how willing you are to take risks and how willing you are to be on stage and your anxiety to the extent you have it about performance you know, Kenny Werner, who's a music, music, educator, and jazz performer has this great.
[00:38:40] A book called effortless mastery, which is all about really overcoming the inner voice of doubt and judgment, which is so important in improvisation. And you know, jazz is really a way of learning about yourself. I mean, not that it's about Naval gazing or narcissism, but that to be a good jazz player, you have to be in tune with yourself as well as the music.
[00:39:00] [00:38:59] And then, you know, jazz is inherently about innovation because it's about creating new, new notes that have to sound good and create value. D the technological intelligence, I would say relates in a very literal way to, you know, I, I'm fortunate to have a really good piano and every day I look at it and Marvel at how.
[00:39:20] Humans were able to create something so beautiful and also so functional. So mastering the instrument, but now, you know, we have all of this new technology for music. We have technologies that allow people to jam together at a distance over the internet. We have digital keyboards that include lots of learning, learning software and learning assets.
[00:39:42] We have digital keyboards that can do everything, but stand on their head. There was a lot to know there. And then finally, transformational intelligence. So, you know, this relates partly to the issue of practice. You know, it's partly a division of, you know, what kind of musician are you [00:40:00] heading in the direction of who do you want to be?
[00:40:01]But then also what's the practice model or the steps in the journey that will take you there. What's your theory of change? And, you know, I know for me that you know, my studies of jazz have occurred at two. Times in my life. One of which was when I was a teenager followed by a long hiatus and now I've picked it up again at, with really serious intent.
[00:40:22] And so the issues of how my playing is evolving are very much on my mind. So transformation intelligence is important there as well. So there it works, right?
[00:40:33] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:40:33] I, yeah, I had a feeling it would, because I've thought about this a lot on when, you know, they're the relationships, there are so striking and this notion of transformation, it's not specifically in strictly to the intelligences, but I feel like especially jazz, cause I'm a jazz musician as well.
[00:40:50] Jazz singer. You, you have an opportunity to when you're special, when you're playing with other people too, to be in the pocket to really [00:41:00] make something greater than the sum of its parts. When you are all listening to one another and collaborating, and then your audience gets enriched by that collaboration by that jazz collaboration, or even if it's not jazz for me, traditional music in many ways is similar because there's a lot of improv and a lot of feeling out what the other musicians are doing so that you can again, make something greater than the sum of its parts.
[00:41:25] So what role do you think the relationship with an audience has in the six intelligences and also within jazz?
[00:41:37] John Kao: [00:41:37] Can you rephrase the question again? Yeah.
[00:41:40] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:41:40] I talked so long that you're going, I don't know what's going on anymore. Well, I, the thing that, I'm the thing that I'm asking really is. When you, when you are innovating you're, as you said, it's with a purpose.
[00:41:54] So it's never, well, it's almost been never just for yourself. It's for, for perhaps a greater good or for [00:42:00] bigger group. And the same can be said for when you're playing music, unless you're sitting at home in your bedroom and playing your piano, your guitar, and you never play out there. There is this notion of sharing, sharing the innovation, jazz musicians, who, who will get up in the smallest room and, and play that night, for example.
[00:42:19] So, so how do we relate that? How do we, how do we do that? And what is the relationship there between the innovator, whether it's a musician or somebody in technology or a leader and the audience whose lives and minds and thoughts and hearts that they are, are trying to affect?
[00:42:40] John Kao: [00:42:40] Well, What I'm taking from your question is the need to create a bridge between the person who's, let's say emitting the the new innovative experience or idea or musical expression or whatever.
[00:42:55]And, and the audience. And, you know, it's like a sweet spot in, in [00:43:00] jazz. You know, if, if you are if you're. If you're what you're presenting is to cut and dried or elemental, it's not going to land, but if it's to expeditionary or adventurous, it won't land either. And that sweet spot, which you gauge by audience feedback, nonverbal cues the, the vibe in the room and so forth and so on is a moving target.
[00:43:24] And sometimes it evolves in the course of a single interaction with an audience. I mean, being a public speaker as I am from time to time, you know, that reading the audience continuously is one of the key skills of delivering a great presentation over, over, you know, whatever, a 30 to 60 minute timeframe.
[00:43:42] So having also then. The, the inner integrity of what's being offered, not just as a, you know an exercise in, in corporate entertainment. I mean, so, so much of what is going on out there in terms of keynote speaking is about, you know, can you make the audience laugh and [00:44:00] feel as titillated as possible?
[00:44:02] And like they got a free admission to Ted as opposed to really thinking about the inner authenticity of the of what's being communicated and how it's going to land and how it's going to contribute in their own journey of transformation. So, you know, I think these, these elements that we've been talking about provide a really handy framework to be able to evaluate.
[00:44:24]Your work as an innovator, what you're putting out there, how it lands with an audience, et cetera.
[00:44:31] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:44:31] And, and yet it's interesting what you just said. It's a, it's a constant, almost on a micro level. It's a constant reinvention of the relationship with your audience. And on a macro level, you can iterate based on the feedback you got and, and how things went each time that you're, you're up in front of an audience.
[00:44:50] And, and that brings me to something that I'm, that I would love it. If you would talk about just a little bit, you, you talked some about [00:45:00] intersections and where, where those connections are made, and I know that you, you have a live stream show called intersections, and I would love it. If you would talk a little bit about the show and what your process is, and also what your goal is for keeping this this live stream show going.
[00:45:16] Sure.
[00:45:17] John Kao: [00:45:17] Well, intersections is a livestream show that happens every Thursday, 10 30 Pacific. I do it with a partner named Brian Solis. Who's among other things, the global evangelist for innovation at Salesforce. So we have between us a pretty enormous network of people who are on the edges of their fields.
[00:45:37] And intersections is basically where culture technology and innovation come together with conversations every week with a couple of pioneers. In their field. So it could be a one of the leaders of artificial intelligence research in China, it could be we just had the, the general manager of the San Jose sharks talking about the reinvention of the sports [00:46:00] venue and sports franchise experience and the role of digital in all of that.
[00:46:04]We've had musicians talking about advanced technologies that are going to change the way music learning occurs. We've had military strategists talk about cyber security and the solar winds hack we've had big deal, domain experts in innovation, like read them and the graph. So it, it varies, it partly, it relates to our own interests.
[00:46:26]And, but it, it, it exhibits a principle, which is that combustion in the sense of innovation combustion tends to happen when you bring diverse perspectives together and force them to coexist in a space in this case, say conversational space because it's we we've, we've had 34 shows to date, and each one has been more exciting and more exhilarating than, than the last.
[00:46:50]There's also a website called intersections, live.com where we have the full interviews archive, because they're not. Really time-bound, they're, they're [00:47:00] quite evergreen and we're going to be doing a lot of additional work on the content to make it more available to others. So, you know, it's just another way for me to stay current and have fun talking with interesting people like you.
[00:47:14] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:47:14] I'm so grateful. You said that. Thank you so much. And I'm, I, I have listened to just a couple of the episodes, but I want to make sure that I go and listen to more. I I'm I'm so like, honestly, John, I could keep you here for the next six hours and chat with you, but I know you have a life to get to. So I, I wanted to talk just a little bit if it's okay with you about a couple more things that you and I discussed shortly before we started recording this episode, one of them was John cale.live, and the other one is, and this one is so close to my heart.
[00:47:46] About your thoughts on the need, the urgent need to reinvent music education. I was very lucky. I had incredible music education in the public schools, but I know that [00:48:00] the, the emphasis on it has really died down. And I think it's, it's a floundering in many ways. I teach nothing against teachers. Teachers do as much as they can, but I think we're, we're in an age now where we really do need to revitalize it.
[00:48:16] So I would love it. If you wouldn't mind chatting about both John kao.live for a second, and also this notion that you have about re-inventing music education. I would really love it because both of those fascinate me. Sure.
[00:48:29] John Kao: [00:48:29] Happy to do that. So, you know, one of the things that's been going on, especially during the pandemic is not only the need, but the ability of people with some, a bit of expertise to be able to reinvent their connection to their audience using social media.
[00:48:45] Using video and using all of the new tools that are coming on stream the applications that enabled people to establish a fairly sophisticated interface with their audience. So I'm not blind to that either, even though I grew up in kind of like the [00:49:00] analog world where, you know, you would teach at a good business school and people would call you up and that would be it, right?
[00:49:06] I mean, now it's far more complex and also the opportunity to have an impact more broadly is enabled by the technology. So John kao.live is my recent attempt to put my, some of my learning experiences online. To enable people to subscribe to my ongoing generation of content to be able to access me one-on-one under certain circumstances for consultations.
[00:49:32]And we'll see how it goes. It's just in the process of being launched. I'm really excited about it. I mean, during the pandemic, I think even though it's had its own shortcomings and limitations put, has put limitations, it's also been a great enabler of a different form of social interaction. And so I'm, I'm eager to see how that plays out with John Cale live there's music.
[00:49:55] Education is concerned. I have a real, you know, I tend to organize my work work based [00:50:00] on projects or causes, right. And so I've adopted music education as a cause, because I think it's both extremely important from a societal point of view and also really in need of some radical. Re-invention first of all, just taking a half step back music is to my mind, one of the most important things that humans have.
[00:50:22] And it's one of the most important things that societies have. And, you know, some societies like you know, Finland for instance, has great music education and the highest per capita percentage of trained musicians of any country in the world. You know, China is investing in music education because they believe it contributes to brain development, which is necessary to be competitive in the global economy.
[00:50:45]We in America have been divesting ourselves of music education, cause it's not a high priority relative to other things. And I think that's wrong for a number of reasons. I mean, music humanizes us and develops our brains and [00:51:00] gives us cognitive skills and emotional skills, relational skills that are really, really important.
[00:51:06] But. And, and, you know, we have this social institution of music, educators public school, music teachers music schools, and what's happening. What I see, I recently wrote an article for the national association of teachers of music or music educators called music education in the age of innovation because I became, I gave some talks to music, educator organizations, and did some workshops.
[00:51:32] I I'm, you know, Yamaha made me their first artists and innovation and put me in front of deans of music conservatories and public school music teachers in different ways. And I became aware of the fact that, you know, not to generalize, but that there was a whole world of music. Learning that was growing up around the traditional music institutions that had nothing to do with them.
[00:51:56] You know? So today, if you go to YouTube, YouTube is the new [00:52:00] music conservatory, and there are thousands of citizen teachers out there who are happy to show you how to do, you know, urban, dirty chords, or you know, how to do patterns on you know, modes of the melodic, minor, or what whatnot, or help you learn how to use your, you know, Nord, electric, piano, and that.
[00:52:19] Very often the people who know the most about things that young people are most interested in are not in the academy. You know, they're in this external space, so that music education has turned inside out. And also that there's now technology that enables people to learn without having to have a music teacher in the conventional sense.
[00:52:38] So I believe that, you know, it's the sixth intelligence is music. Education has to know more about what's going on. They have to reaffirm what's important about it. They have to you know, get with the whole technological intelligence piece because there's an ocean of technology out there that most music teachers are, you know, to be Frank, not aware of.
[00:52:59] And [00:53:00] then they have to have a model of how they want to evolve. So they stay relevant and serve these purposes. So it's a, it's a big topic.
[00:53:09] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:53:09] Again, you're singing my song. Yeah, it really is. And it's interesting. I'm one of those people on YouTube. I have videos up on how to learn to sing for example. And so lots of us, I think musicians once you're, once you've, I can't say mastered, I will, I will forever be learning.
[00:53:26] I will never be a master, I don't think. And that's okay. I'm I'm, I'm okay. As a, as a lifetime learner of music. Hm. But yet when we are in the process yes. Of learning, you know, the NIH has done incredible studies on the fact that you use so many parts of your brain when you're learning, when you're playing a musical instrument, but when choir sing together, their heartbeats synchronize.
[00:53:50] I mean, it's, it's just incredible. And yet this, this is something that, like you said, the USA, for example, is divesting itself of music education. When I [00:54:00] think it's one of the most, I agree with you, it's one of the most crucial things. So do we. What do you think is the best way to revitalize it then? Is it to go through the music educators or is it to, like you said, create a sense of urgency in the intended audience, which might not be the music educators themselves, but might instead be the school districts and the governments and the conservatories?
[00:54:26] John Kao: [00:54:26] Well, I think it's both in more, I think that, you know, the the move to music learning outside of the music school system is going to continue. And there are going to be new platforms for linking people who know something to people who want to learn something in music, but, you know, you have these, this massive number of music educators out there and.
[00:54:49] I think they want to do the right thing. And I think that what they need basically is a bit more insight into what's going on and what their situation is and what they can do. And, you know, [00:55:00] it's kind of like the innovator's dilemma. If they, they they're locked into an existing model and they are improving that model, but they're not thinking outside that model as much as I think is necessary.
[00:55:11] So I think to put more music into our world is a multi-pronged effort. And I, I chose music educators because, you know, my experience is they're very receptive to this message and making them more aware of the reality of their situation will produce a lot of benefits. I mean, I, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm all over, what's going on in the world of the app developers and YouTube educators but that, that has a momentum of its own.
[00:55:38]Whereas music, education, I think needs a lot of re-imagining.
[00:55:46] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:55:46] Yeah, yeah. Again, I you're saying things that I have to sort of take a second and, and let it soak in and really and figure out what my, what my thoughts are on it, because, because it's so rich with with [00:56:00] value and, and I really appreciate you being so incredibly thoughtful in, in, in this conversation, I have just a couple more questions.
[00:56:09] First is what are you most curious about right now?
[00:56:17] John Kao: [00:56:17] Well I always have a long list, curiosity, the, you know, kind of theme of my whole life I, you know, I'm, I'm thinking a lot about cryptocurrencies and the whole non fungible token phenomenon. So I'm trying to get my mind more firmly around that because for all kinds of reasons I'm spending a lot of time thinking about the offshore wind industry and the physics of energy generation from from especially all of the huge macro projects that are going on in the ocean.
[00:56:49] And there are a lot of, a lot of reasons for that. And, you know, I'm, I'm curious to know if I'm ever going to master the The the modes of melodic minor to the point where they show up.
[00:57:00] [00:57:00] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:57:00] Yeah. I don't know. I, I just, I just go with it because I there's, no, again, you can, you can know the theory, but on some level for me anyway, it's, I've I have to feel it and then maybe it'll happen.
[00:57:15] And maybe it won't. And so a lot of it for me, depends on who I'm working with and who I'm singing and playing with because we play off each other. So good luck with that. I really, I look forward to hearing your pieces. Will you ever record them, do you think, will you ever share them
[00:57:30] John Kao: [00:57:30] out? Well, I, you know, I, I think I got to spend a lot more time in the woodshed, but I I've had the entertainment fantasy of doing some some live streaming at some point.
[00:57:39] Fabulous. And I'm always looking for a musical collaborators. So maybe we'll find a couple of pieces and we'll use a friend of mine, just invented some software that will enable. People in Brooklyn and people in San Francisco to play in real time or almost real time. Which has never been possible before.
[00:57:55] So maybe we'll be able to jam on some tunes.
[00:57:59] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:57:59] I would love [00:58:00] that. That, that would be my honor. That would be terrific. Yeah. I'll bring my, my fiddle and I'll bring my guitar and my voice and we'll see what we can do. And you know, it is interesting. I lead a holiday Carolyn group and of course I used to be in DC and I moved to New York city and they are still in the DC area.
[00:58:17] So when we, when we have to sing and there were a few live performances this year, there was no way for me to be part of that because I could not, there was no, there was no software. There was no anything that would allow us to sound appropriate if you will, musically appropriate when we were in different, different places.
[00:58:37] It just, so I'm really grateful to your friend for having invented that. That's fabulous. Thank you. Thank your friend for me. And yes, let's jam.
[00:58:46] John Kao: [00:58:46] Okay. Great.
[00:58:47]Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:58:47] And here's the last question, John, and again, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate you taking the time. It's a, it's a silly question, but I find that it yields some profound answers.
[00:58:57] And the question is this. If you had an [00:59:00] airplane that could sky write anything for the whole world to see, what would you say?
[00:59:05]John Kao: [00:59:05] I would say two words remain optimistic.
[00:59:12] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:59:12] I love that. I love that, especially right now. Thank you so much for sharing that. That's great. Is there anything else that you would like to say before we close out this fabulous conversation?
[00:59:24] John Kao: [00:59:24] No, I think I would just like to thank you for being such a great catalyst and conversational partner and I've enjoyed it.
[00:59:31] It's, you know, it's good to have the opportunity to step back a little bit and review one's thoughts about. Something that you know is almost at the level of an obsession, right? So there's a Parson, there's a tree's level of looking at it. And this got me back to the forest a bit.
[00:59:47] Izolda Trakhtenberg: [00:59:47] Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for saying that.
[00:59:49] I appreciate it. I had a fabulous time as well, and this has been the amazing John Kao on the innovative mindset podcast. I am your host Izolda [01:00:00] Trakhtenberg. If you've enjoyed the episode. Please. Let me know. I'd love to hear it. Go find John kao.live when it airs, go listen to intersections. Obviously, this man is incredible.
[01:00:11] Knows what he's talking about and has ideas. We all need to be paying attention to until next time, this is his old, the Trakhtenberg reminding you to listen, learn, laugh, and love a whole lot.
[01:00:29] so much for joining me today. I really appreciate you being here. Please subscribe to the podcast if you're new and if you like what you're hearing, please review it and rate it and let other people know. And if you'd like to be a sponsor of the show, I'd love to meet you on patrion.com/innovative mindset.
[01:00:46] I also have lots of exclusive goodies to share just with the show supporters there today's episode was produced by Izolda Trakhtenberg and his copyright 2021 as always, please remember, this is for educational and entertainment purposes. [01:01:00] Only past performance does not guarantee future results, although we can always hope until next time, keep living in your innovative mindset.
 
 
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